Hello All, I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to. I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation. Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really solid, but we can't support them. Thx Shri
I take it that DECT headsets or handsets are out of question? They would certainly have better range and quality than WiFi. On 09/08/2015 01:05 PM, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really solid, but we can't support them.
Thx Shri
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs. I'm no expert on DECT, but what I've seen is that most of them don't roam between bases. The ones that do cost more, such as the Polycom/Spectralink stuff. I like and use some basic Panasonic DECT stuff, but last time I checked it could not roam between bases (they said they might in the future). Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured. Some people are idiots and put the APs on different SSIDs, which kills roaming. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:24 PM Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
I take it that DECT headsets or handsets are out of question?
They would certainly have better range and quality than WiFi.
On 09/08/2015 01:05 PM, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really solid, but we can't support them.
Thx Shri
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States
Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
There are DECT extenders that can help in some cases. snom has some decent gear that doesn't run to the cost/complexity of the enterprise DECT a la Spectralink. Michael Graves mgraves at mstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o(713) 861-4005 c(713) 201-1262 sip:mgraves at mjg.onsip.com skype mjgraves --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] WiFi SIP phones recommendations From: "Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> Date: 9/8/15 2:35 pm To: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com>, voiceops at voiceops.org The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs. I'm no expert on DECT, but what I've seen is that most of them don't roam between bases. The ones that do cost more, such as the Polycom/Spectralink stuff. I like and use some basic Panasonic DECT stuff, but last time I checked it could not roam between bases (they said they might in the future). Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured. Some people are idiots and put the APs on different SSIDs, which kills roaming. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:24 PM Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote: I take it that DECT headsets or handsets are out of question? They would certainly have better range and quality than WiFi. On 09/08/2015 01:05 PM, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really solid, but we can't support them.
Thx Shri
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay? Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client? Or is this really a static IP + WAP association-only undertaking? -- Alex -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
Yup, mid-call. I've roamed around the marina you visited with me for example, without ever dropping the call and with nearly no perceptible hand-off noise. There is no DHCP exchange when roaming between APs on the same network with the same SSID. You would drop the call if you roamed between networks, and I'm pretty sure you would also if you changed SSID.
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
You can put any number of APs on the same LAN without DHCP being involved in hand-offs, ever. DHCP is only requested when the client associates with a new SSID, not when it moves between APs.
Or is this really a static IP + WAP association-only undertaking?
Static is not needed.
On 09/08/2015 03:53 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
DHCP is only requested when the client associates with a new SSID, not when it moves between APs.
That wasn't the case last time I tried it, but that was a number of years ago. I'll consider myself schooled -- thanks folks! -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
On 09/08/2015 03:43 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Or is this really a static IP + WAP association-only undertaking?
Why would your client mess with DHCP on roaming? Mine at home never do. I roam between 3 of them several times a day, a proper handoff on both sides means i don't even realize it happening, let alone re-associate with DHCP and all that jazz - it happens at the MAC layer and isn't visible to the OS unless it asks the current station BSSID and decides to do something about it. "APs properly configured" comes into play here heavily. -Paul
On 09/08/2015 03:54 PM, Paul Timmins wrote:
a proper handoff on both sides means i don't even realize it happening, let alone re-associate with DHCP and all that jazz - it happens at the MAC layer and isn't visible to the OS unless it asks the current station BSSID and decides to do something about it. "APs properly configured" comes into play here heavily.
In principle, yes, but I've never seen an OS network management infrastructure which eliminates this bureaucracy when switching APs or does this seamlessly. For example, as far as I know, neither my Ubuntu laptop nor my Android phone will automatically switch APs with the same ESSID. They'll hang onto the old AP for as long as possible, then drop it and reassociate, with DHCP jazz and all. However, I would think that putting the client on a static IP would largely obviate this. Have I just missed a subtle shift in implementation over the last few years? I don't have two APs handy. Or are WiFi SIP phones specifically designed to work as you describe? -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
On 09/08/2015 03:58 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
In principle, yes, but I've never seen an OS network management infrastructure which eliminates this bureaucracy when switching APs or does this seamlessly.
For example, as far as I know, neither my Ubuntu laptop nor my Android phone will automatically switch APs with the same ESSID. They'll hang onto the old AP for as long as possible, then drop it and reassociate, with DHCP jazz and all. However, I would think that putting the client on a static IP would largely obviate this.
Have I just missed a subtle shift in implementation over the last few years? I don't have two APs handy. Or are WiFi SIP phones specifically designed to work as you describe I'm using Meraki MR16 and MR12 throughout my house. It will request clients reallocate themselves to access points as needed to balance out traffic, if you want. None of this stuff including my Macbook Pro, my Nexus 6, my iPad 2 3G, or my HP Windows 10 tablet hybrid thingy seem to have any trouble, or even knowledge of which one they're on. I've rebooted the main one and it's invisible to me, as the clients get shoved to the next wired AP they can reach instead, then it goes down for reboot.
-Paul
On 08/09/15 21:43, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Or is this really a static IP + WAP association-only undertaking? If it is an AP for same WiFi network (same lan), it should just work -- there won't be any IP change, only transmission on physical layer will have a different path.
Cheers, Daniel -- Daniel-Constantin Mierla http://twitter.com/#!/miconda - http://www.linkedin.com/in/miconda Book: SIP Routing With Kamailio - http://www.asipto.com Kamailio Advanced Training, Sep 28-30, 2015, in Berlin - http://asipto.com/u/kat
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
I can't speak to other Wi-Fi phones, but the Cisco 7921G and 7925g models certainly work this way, I've deployed a bunch of then on CUCM. The assumption would be that any of the SSIDs that the phone would associate with would be on the same VLAN/IP subnet, same DHCP server, etc. That is how I have seen it deployed. Typically, when a client with an existing DHCP binding sends a request it receives the same IP address in its new lease. I believe the RFC is actually written that way. I am also going to second (or third) DECT for this application. Spectralink has a complete line of DECT servers, repeaters, etc. but to be honest I have covered an entire floor of a commercial building with one server/base station. Force 3 Rob Dawson Solutions Architect O 410-774-7153 M 571-234-2621 2151 Priest Bridge Dr. Crofton, MD 21114 Check out the new Force3.com ! -----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 3:43 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] WiFi SIP phones recommendations On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay? Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs onto the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client? Or is this really a static IP + WAP association-only undertaking? -- Alex -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com>
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
An access point is an L1 bridge; everyone on the wireless side of every AP are all on the same LAN with the same addressing.
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs on the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Access points. Not routers. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
On 9/19/15 8:42 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com>
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
An access point is an L1 bridge; everyone on the wireless side of every AP are all on the same LAN with the same addressing.
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs on the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Access points. Not routers.
This implies that a level of intelligence/sophistication is (or isn't) in the client unit that when it bounces to a new AP it wouldn't run a refresh on the lease. It would be very reasonable to think that an AP with the same name might be on a different subnet (different regions/depts of a large building, or whatever), which would then render the call dead. What you're suggesting is intelligent handoffs similar to a cellular network. -Aaron
On 09/21/2015 12:32 PM, Aaron Seelye wrote:
On 9/19/15 8:42 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com>
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
An access point is an L1 bridge; everyone on the wireless side of every AP are all on the same LAN with the same addressing.
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs on the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Access points. Not routers.
This implies that a level of intelligence/sophistication is (or isn't) in the client unit that when it bounces to a new AP it wouldn't run a refresh on the lease. It would be very reasonable to think that an AP with the same name might be on a different subnet (different regions/depts of a large building, or whatever), which would then render the call dead.
What you're suggesting is intelligent handoffs similar to a cellular network.
-Aaron _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ubiquiti's UniFi WiFi line do just that? Is there something I'm missing when a client moves closer to AP "B" and the network dynamically hands off the connection to AP "B"? -- Robert Johnson BendTel, Inc. (541)389-4020 Central Oregon's Own Telephone and Internet Service Provider http://bendtel.com/about/
On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Robert Johnson <robert.j at bendtel.com> wrote:
On 09/21/2015 12:32 PM, Aaron Seelye wrote:
On 9/19/15 8:42 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com>
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured.
Really? Can this take place seamlessly mid-call? With DHCP? What about DHCP lease acquisition delay?
An access point is an L1 bridge; everyone on the wireless side of every AP are all on the same LAN with the same addressing.
Would such a configuration involve merely bridging all the APs on the same LAN segment so that the same DHCP server feeds them? If so, where's the guarantee that the DHCP server will lease out the same IP address to the client?
Access points. Not routers.
This implies that a level of intelligence/sophistication is (or isn't) in the client unit that when it bounces to a new AP it wouldn't run a refresh on the lease. It would be very reasonable to think that an AP with the same name might be on a different subnet (different regions/depts of a large building, or whatever), which would then render the call dead.
What you're suggesting is intelligent handoffs similar to a cellular network.
-Aaron _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ubiquiti's UniFi WiFi line do just that? Is there something I'm missing when a client moves closer to AP "B" and the network dynamically hands off the connection to AP "B"?
-- Robert Johnson BendTel, Inc. (541)389-4020 Central Oregon's Own Telephone and Internet Service Provider http://bendtel.com/about/
Per existing standards the network doesn't decide AP selection, the client does. The only specific roaming extension I know of is 802.11r which defines a caching mechanism to reduce the authentication delays associated with switching access points; the goal being that even fairly complex 802.1x authenticated networks with RADIUS backends, etc can provide the same general roaming characteristics and timing of unauthenticated networks. I imagine that various AP equipment vendors with controller based architectures could (and probably do) implement some things to influence client behavior and/or improve the roaming experience; such as enforcing some administrator defined or preferred behavior by having access points trigger client roaming with carefully controlled output power, selective disassociation frames, AP/BSS specific association rules/preferences, etc. Generally speaking 802.1x is used in cases where the backend network is almost always the same L2 VLAN where DHCP doesn't really enter the picture although of course the client can certainly do or try all kinds of strange things. In fact many 802.1x deployments map user credentials to different L2 VLANs based on provided access credentials (even over the same SSID). I would hope that in PSK environments this remains the case, that is "same SSID = same VLAN". Of course at the end of the day admins can do all kinds of strange things (and so can equipment/software vendors). -- Kristian Kielhofner
On 09/21/2015 04:05 PM, Kristian Kielhofner wrote:
Per existing standards the network doesn't decide AP selection, the client does. The only specific roaming extension I know of is 802.11r which defines a caching mechanism to reduce the authentication delays associated with switching access points; the goal being that even fairly complex 802.1x authenticated networks with RADIUS backends, etc can provide the same general roaming characteristics and timing of unauthenticated networks.
I imagine that various AP equipment vendors with controller based architectures could (and probably do) implement some things to influence client behavior and/or improve the roaming experience; such as enforcing some administrator defined or preferred behavior by having access points trigger client roaming with carefully controlled output power, selective disassociation frames, AP/BSS specific association rules/preferences, etc.
Thanks, that was the precise gap in my understanding. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
On 21/09/15 20:40, Robert Johnson wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ubiquiti's UniFi WiFi line do just that? Is there something I'm missing when a client moves closer to AP "B" and the network dynamically hands off the connection to AP "B"?
In theory yes. Unifi Zero hand off does just this. The client doesn't see the roam. Real life experience suggests the zero handoff isn't great in real world conditions. I've spent a long time playing with it on a few sites, and given up. Instead adjusting the minrssi system which pushes the client to make a roam. Maybe if you had very regular buildings, an isolated network for VoIP (separate access points and L2), no neighbours using WiFi, then it might be better, There are some new UniFI APs coming out, so will be interesting to see if they are any different. Tim
I think that part of the problem is that underlying wired backbone layer II network also needs to catch up on the port-change (possibly even switch-change) when the client is (invisibly) handed over to the new radio. Think along the lines o 30-second MAC table timeout before broadcast occurs unless there is constant 2-way data through the tables on the necessary devices to immediately see the change (dependent on logical backbone layout). The same problem exists with clients on non-.ah networks too. IMHO DECT (even with repeaters) beats WiFi hands-down for voice. Pete On 22/09/2015, at 8:53 PM, Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> wrote:
On 21/09/15 20:40, Robert Johnson wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ubiquiti's UniFi WiFi line do just that? Is there something I'm missing when a client moves closer to AP "B" and the network dynamically hands off the connection to AP "B"?
In theory yes. Unifi Zero hand off does just this. The client doesn't see the roam.
Real life experience suggests the zero handoff isn't great in real world conditions. I've spent a long time playing with it on a few sites, and given up. Instead adjusting the minrssi system which pushes the client to make a roam.
Maybe if you had very regular buildings, an isolated network for VoIP (separate access points and L2), no neighbours using WiFi, then it might be better,
There are some new UniFI APs coming out, so will be interesting to see if they are any different.
Tim
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs.
Also: just how much range do you need in a restaurant, unless the restaurant in question is the residence of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum? You and I both have Plantronics CSxxx DECT headsets and the range is very impressive. In my case with the CS540, I can straight-up leave the building, on whose third floor my office is situated, go through the parking deck, and take a walk up the road without any degradation. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
Alex, the base is in the basement (as is the kitchen), the somelier office is on the third floor. they shuttle back and forth between the top and the bottom. the experience that i have had with the yealink w52p dect, is 20 feet in an open plan office and they start to suck. they're just crappy it seems. TGP500 same (maybe 50 feet), the tgp600 says 50 meters and each repeater adds another 50 meters (indoors). Since they have ubnt AP-Pro's and chris states that zero handoff is not supported, i think i'm going to have to try to sell them on a dect solution. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base
station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs.
Also: just how much range do you need in a restaurant, unless the restaurant in question is the residence of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum?
You and I both have Plantronics CSxxx DECT headsets and the range is very impressive. In my case with the CS540, I can straight-up leave the building, on whose third floor my office is situated, go through the parking deck, and take a walk up the road without any degradation.
-- Alex
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States
Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] WiFi SIP phones recommendations From: "Shripal Daphtary" <shripald at gmail.com> Date: 9/8/15 2:53 pm To: "Alex Balashov" <abalashov at evaristesys.com> Cc: "VoiceOps at voiceops.org" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Alex, the base is in the basement (as is the kitchen), the somelier office is on the third floor. they shuttle back and forth between the top and the bottom. the experience that i have had with the yealink w52p dect, is 20 feet in an open plan office and they start to suck. they're just crappy it seems. TGP500 same (maybe 50 feet), the tgp600 says 50 meters and each repeater adds another 50 meters (indoors). Since they have ubnt AP-Pro's and chris states that zero handoff is not supported, i think i'm going to have to try to sell them on a dect solution. My Sennheiser DECT headset lets me roam 40m before it degrades. In my case, that's on the other side of of our house, so line-of-sight is completely lost. A repeater would help that. The limit to DECT that's not to easy to overcome is concurrent calls. Most current consumer-ish/SMB gear is limited to 4 concurrent calls. On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote: On 09/08/2015 03:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote: The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs. Also: just how much range do you need in a restaurant, unless the restaurant in question is the residence of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum? You and I both have Plantronics CSxxx DECT headsets and the range is very impressive. In my case with the CS540, I can straight-up leave the building, on whose third floor my office is situated, go through the parking deck, and take a walk up the road without any degradation. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 08/09/15 20:53, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
the experience that i have had with the yealink w52p dect, is 20 feet in an open plan office and they start to suck. they're just crappy it seems.
I think Yealink did have a range issue. Especially when any other kind of DECT device nearby. Or other transmitting devices (especially ADSL modems). I've no proof. Just feedback from the 1500 or so W52P that we've sold. And just some customers. The range is just rubbish for some people in some places. In theory, hundreds of dect devices can share the same spectrum. In practice, my view is that Yealink fails (or used to fail, maybe fixed) in this area. I also recommend that people leave at least 1 metre separation between a Dect base and any other transmission equipment - ADSL router, wifi, another dect base, homeplug ethernet ..... Tim
You can link base stations for DECT according to snom into a meshed network On 9/8/2015 3:35 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
The challenge with DECT is that "range" is relative to a single base station/AP versus roaming between base stations/APs. I'm no expert on DECT, but what I've seen is that most of them don't roam between bases. The ones that do cost more, such as the Polycom/Spectralink stuff. I like and use some basic Panasonic DECT stuff, but last time I checked it could not roam between bases (they said they might in the future).
Every Wifi phone I've tried will roam just fine between APs assuming the APs are properly configured. Some people are idiots and put the APs on different SSIDs, which kills roaming.
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:24 PM Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com <mailto:abalashov at evaristesys.com>> wrote:
I take it that DECT headsets or handsets are out of question?
They would certainly have better range and quality than WiFi.
On 09/08/2015 01:05 PM, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
> Hello All, > > I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using > unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the > AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to. > > > I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and > simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because > the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation. > > Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really > solid, but we can't support them. > > Thx > Shri > > > _______________________________________________ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps at voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States
Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
--- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
I would much prefer to use DECT, but right now the customer seems adamant to wifi. not sure why. have you used the TGP600s from panasonic? On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
I take it that DECT headsets or handsets are out of question?
They would certainly have better range and quality than WiFi.
On 09/08/2015 01:05 PM, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Customer is coming off a call manager with Cisco 7925s, which are really solid, but we can't support them.
Thx Shri
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States
Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 08/09/15 20:45, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
I would much prefer to use DECT, but right now the customer seems adamant to wifi. not sure why. have you used the TGP600s from panasonic
TGP600 is a fairly new product for us. Launched about 3 months ago. We've sold about 100, but we've had no complaints. (Products usually take while to get going. Usually 6 months to a year before volume sales take off. Everybody wants to play with the sample for a few months. ) Panasonic also took on all of our feedback on previous products, and used it to shape the new products coming through. So quite a long development time, but they really did listen. One of Panasonic's developers is visiting us today to look at an issue with another phone Tim
Maybe security? Last time we checked wireless DECT phones and we didn't like that you can't really have secure calls, since DECT was easily intercepted and decoded. I'm not sure if that changed since then. On 08/09/15 22:45, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
I would much prefer to use DECT, but right now the customer seems adamant to wifi. not sure why.
On 08/09/15 18:05, Shripal Daphtary wrote:
Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I'm presuming you need to be able to use any handset on any floor of the restaurant. And uou really need 10 phones. Then you are just into the bottom end of needing an enterprise DECT system. I would use something like the: - gigaset N720 - panasonic KX-UDS124UK - RTX RTX 8630/8660 (which is the same as the snom roaming dect) These are all roaming dect systems. You are going to have to do some site survey work to get the distance between the bases correct. In Dect, the bases have to see each other over the air to synchronize timing. I've never really found a wifi (as in wireless lan) combination which is good enough for handoff. unifi zero handoff doesn't really work well. Maybe with cisco APs and cisco phones, but I haven't really tried that.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Difference between a dect base designed for SME, and a dect base for enterprise. If you only want 6 handsets. And only need 4 calls. And 2 of the phone calls will always be in range of the base station. And all phone on 4 SIP accounts (so 2 handsets share a SIP account with another handset) You could use: Gigaset N510IP (supports 4 calls, and 6 handsets) RTX Pro repeaters. (up to 6 repeaters). The repeaters can do repeater to repeater links. But really makesure you understand the limitations of this setup. You can't put 6 SIP accounts into a ring group on your PBX, because only the first 4 will ring (because the base can only do 4 calls) Also be aware that gigaset have different variants (read, limits on how many calls) for each country. So double check. *********** And one more option would be: Panasonic KX-TGP600 http://business.panasonic.co.uk/communication-solutions/PBX-SIP/business-SIP... This supports 8 handsets and 8 calls. And support repeaters. So for an 8 handset solution, this might fit really well. There is also a KX-TPA65 This is a dect desk phone. I know that one of the problems is restaurants is people stealing the handsets. We've had a lot of customers turn down dect solutions because worried the handsets will walk off. If you use the deskphone and screw to the desk, it won't move. And you still get the easy installation without having to run a cat5. I think the Panasonic probably best for you, if 8 handsets are enough. (sorry, that's a long email) Tim
Great Tim. Thanks for the input here. I'll take a look at the dect options below. Shripal
On Sep 9, 2015, at 6:17 AM, Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> wrote:
On 08/09/15 18:05, Shripal Daphtary wrote: Hello All,
I'm looking to implement 6-10 WIFI phones for a 3 floor restaurant using unifi AP-PRO's. i'm not sure if they are using zero handoff on the AP's, but i'm sure they can implement, if they need to.
I'm presuming you need to be able to use any handset on any floor of the restaurant. And uou really need 10 phones.
Then you are just into the bottom end of needing an enterprise DECT system. I would use something like the:
- gigaset N720 - panasonic KX-UDS124UK - RTX RTX 8630/8660 (which is the same as the snom roaming dect)
These are all roaming dect systems. You are going to have to do some site survey work to get the distance between the bases correct. In Dect, the bases have to see each other over the air to synchronize timing.
I've never really found a wifi (as in wireless lan) combination which is good enough for handoff. unifi zero handoff doesn't really work well. Maybe with cisco APs and cisco phones, but I haven't really tried that.
I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a good (and simple) SIP Wifi hadsets. we wanted to use a yealink w52, but because the repeaters only support one base, it wont work for this implementation.
Difference between a dect base designed for SME, and a dect base for enterprise.
If you only want 6 handsets. And only need 4 calls. And 2 of the phone calls will always be in range of the base station. And all phone on 4 SIP accounts (so 2 handsets share a SIP account with another handset)
You could use:
Gigaset N510IP (supports 4 calls, and 6 handsets)
RTX Pro repeaters. (up to 6 repeaters). The repeaters can do repeater to repeater links.
But really makesure you understand the limitations of this setup.
You can't put 6 SIP accounts into a ring group on your PBX, because only the first 4 will ring (because the base can only do 4 calls)
Also be aware that gigaset have different variants (read, limits on how many calls) for each country. So double check.
***********
And one more option would be:
Panasonic KX-TGP600
http://business.panasonic.co.uk/communication-solutions/PBX-SIP/business-SIP...
This supports 8 handsets and 8 calls. And support repeaters. So for an 8 handset solution, this might fit really well.
There is also a KX-TPA65 This is a dect desk phone. I know that one of the problems is restaurants is people stealing the handsets. We've had a lot of customers turn down dect solutions because worried the handsets will walk off. If you use the deskphone and screw to the desk, it won't move. And you still get the easy installation without having to run a cat5.
I think the Panasonic probably best for you, if 8 handsets are enough.
(sorry, that's a long email)
Tim
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
participants (15)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
aseelye-lists＠eltopia.com -
caalvarez＠gmail.com -
jra＠baylink.com -
kris＠kriskinc.com -
mgraves＠mstvp.com -
miconda＠gmail.com -
paul＠timmins.net -
pete＠fiberphone.co.nz -
peter＠4isps.com -
rdawson＠force3.com -
robert.j＠bendtel.com -
shopik＠inblock.ru -
shripald＠gmail.com -
tim＠kooky.org