Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy
Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker <matthew at corp.crocker.com> wrote:
Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers.
Personally, I wouldn?t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works.
?
Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matthew at corp.crocker.com E: matthew at crocker.com
On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez <caalvarez at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M.
So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas.
If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies.
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-- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations) University of Saskatchewan Typed but not read.
On 08/18/2015 05:00 PM, Derek Andrew wrote:
Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability?
Not at all impossible. It could be not be further from impossible. The LRN allows you to determine where the call goes. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew <Derek.Andrew at usask.ca> wrote:
Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability?
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker <matthew at corp.crocker.com
wrote:
Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers.
Personally, I wouldn?t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works.
?
Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matthew at corp.crocker.com E: matthew at crocker.com
On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez <caalvarez at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M.
So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas.
If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations)
University of Saskatchewan
Typed but not read.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 08/18/2015 05:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote:
Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue.
This regulation does not purport to constrain one from dialling based on the nature of the handset or its physical location. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC 303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 300 Atlanta, GA 30346 United States Tel: +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) / +1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
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I'm going to answer a number of messages at once, because there were quite a few replies (thanks to all of you). NPA-NXX filtering is already being done, and is useless. So they also employ list scrubbing based on what appears to be old/cached LNP info or dips, and that is also insufficient both legally and practically. The data sources being used in the industry now do not appear to comply with the law. For anyone who is saying that you can't determine a cell phone due to LNP, you are wrong. Please look up these terms and you will see it's very possible: LERG, LRN, OCN As far as cell phones that are turned into "home" service, that's fine, we don't care about false positives. We just need to make sure that a cell number is never dialed by mistake. And the law allows a 15 day grace period from porting. On the "guarantee" that isn't something we'd provide, what I mean was simply a data source that is always accurate. Such as LRN-LERG testing for every call. The customer will accept ultimate responsibility. Some people recommended third-party services both on and off the list. The one concern there is again, accuracy. If the list scrubbers can't get it right...then any third party is suspect. Are they using cached data? Or acquiring data from dubious sources? I don't know. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:31 PM Glen Gerhard <ggerhard at sansay.com> wrote:
Carlos,
you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list.
Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list.
Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current).
Good luck,
~Glen
PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-)
On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote:
Derek,
Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue.
Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com <info at eespro.com>, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof.
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew <Derek.Andrew at usask.ca> wrote:
Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability?
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker < matthew at corp.crocker.com> wrote:
Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers.
Personally, I wouldn?t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works.
?
Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matthew at corp.crocker.com E: matthew at crocker.com
On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez <caalvarez at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M.
So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas.
If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations)
University of Saskatchewan
Typed but not read.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing listVoiceOps at voiceops.orghttps://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Have you looked at it from a call routing perspective instead of a service definition perspective? Does the FCC definition of devices/services covered by this ruling match the set of ?things that must have a resolvable Home Location Record to receive a call?? If so, then a per-call SS7 HLR query could do the trick. David From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 15:05 To: Glen Gerhard; voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Preventing calls to cell phones with guaranteed accuracy I'm going to answer a number of messages at once, because there were quite a few replies (thanks to all of you). NPA-NXX filtering is already being done, and is useless. So they also employ list scrubbing based on what appears to be old/cached LNP info or dips, and that is also insufficient both legally and practically. The data sources being used in the industry now do not appear to comply with the law. For anyone who is saying that you can't determine a cell phone due to LNP, you are wrong. Please look up these terms and you will see it's very possible: LERG, LRN, OCN As far as cell phones that are turned into "home" service, that's fine, we don't care about false positives. We just need to make sure that a cell number is never dialed by mistake. And the law allows a 15 day grace period from porting. On the "guarantee" that isn't something we'd provide, what I mean was simply a data source that is always accurate. Such as LRN-LERG testing for every call. The customer will accept ultimate responsibility. Some people recommended third-party services both on and off the list. The one concern there is again, accuracy. If the list scrubbers can't get it right...then any third party is suspect. Are they using cached data? Or acquiring data from dubious sources? I don't know. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:31 PM Glen Gerhard <ggerhard at sansay.com<mailto:ggerhard at sansay.com>> wrote: Carlos, you can get a list of all NPA-NXXs that are used by cell carrier and use that as a starting point. Then add to that the list of LRNs used by call carriers which may or may not be included in the first list. Then you need to dip your traffic and compare the DNIS/LRN to the combined list. If the number is ported the LRN will match the list. If the number is not ported and is cellular it will be in the list of NPA-NXX. If not cellular it won't match the list. Either way if there is a match to the list then you can reject the call for that customer. (I believe you are a Sansay customer so you can set up a route table with the combined list and then use it as the primary route table for those customers and then link to normal tables. I can have our support team put together the list of current NPA-NXX but you'll need a LERG6 subscription to keep it current). Good luck, ~Glen PS this message is not copyrighted nor confidential ;-) On 8/18/2015 2:14 PM, Erik Flournoy wrote: Derek, Is actually right. Legislation that blocks a company from auto dialing a number based on it being a cell phone or landline is extremely difficult to prosecute. Straight talk has a home service that essentially uses a wireless carrier backbone. I can pickup the base plug it in at my neighbors house or better yet put it in my car on a power inverter and wah lah my home phone is what it truly is a cell phone with a 110-220v power supply. Number Portability would make wireline and wireless number location nearly impossible. Manual dialing would be the only way to prevent an auto dialer issue. Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify i<mailto:info at eespro.com>nfo at eespro.com<mailto:nfo at eespro.com>, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Derek Andrew <Derek.Andrew at usask.ca<mailto:Derek.Andrew at usask.ca>> wrote: Isn't it impossible to decide if a number is a cell phone or a land line because of local number portability? On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Crocker <matthew at corp.crocker.com<mailto:matthew at corp.crocker.com>> wrote: Depending on your switch you should be able to build a profile for the customer and reject calls going to cell phone LRN providers. Personally, I wouldn?t take on the liability of guaranteeing their auto-dialer only calls landlines. You would end up being sued if you make a mistake. IMHO, let them manually dial or find a list scrubbing company that actually works. ? Matthew Crocker President - Crocker Communications, Inc. Managing Partner - Crocker Telecommunications, LLC E: matthew at corp.crocker.com<mailto:matthew at corp.crocker.com> E: matthew at crocker.com<mailto:matthew at crocker.com> On Aug 18, 2015, at 4:30 PM, Carlos Alvarez <caalvarez at gmail.com<mailto:caalvarez at gmail.com>> wrote: I have a customer in market research who is legally required to manually dial calls to cell phones. Right now they are considering abandoning all of their auto/predictive dialer software and going to manual dial for everything, because the list-scrubbing services have been shown to be inaccurate. There are extreme penalties for auto-dialing a cell phone, and "best effort" is NOT a defense to this, at all. For example, Gallup just settle a claim for $12M. So they need a totally accurate way to prevent a cell phone call from originating from their dialer. The only thing I can think of is some sort of LRN dip + LRN-to-carrier-type response. One of their people talked to Neustar, but didn't get great answers because he doesn't really understand telephony. Before I get in touch with Neustar, I thought I'd see if people here have some ideas. If you provide a commercial product for this, please feel free to tell me so on or off list, the customer is willing to pay for the service and we're open to all options. I don't have a budget number yet but manual dialing is going to cost them quite a bit for some types of studies. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__puck.nether.net_mailman_listinfo_voiceops&d=AwMFaQ&c=N13-TaG7c-EYAiUNohBk74oLRjUiBTwVm-KSnr4bPSc&r=f4_TiUNNJLT30vbsuVlGA9jtqz7Cz57JEfJz4VS8Kdo&m=RIBB18wTJVi1YZG7buJDLEPgUDdod-__52vUX-p3jNY&s=SksAHa3krbpM4pIOIdM5Cq9pIRELdrP7kgfaJgJDF3o&e=> -- Copyright 2015 Derek Andrew (excluding quotations) University of Saskatchewan Typed but not read. 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Agreed. The more fundamental question was: given the LRN, what's the easiest way to find out if the switch to which it is homed belongs to a wireless operator? The LERG has this information, but a LERG subscription is arguably overkill for such a narrow application and hard to economically justify, especially given Telcordia/iconectiv's pricing strategy of, "Well, how much money ya got?" 95% of the LERG is not needed here. So, I think the question that best speaks to Carlos's actual line of enquiry is not, "How do I do LNP dips?" We all do LNP dips around here, with varying degrees of real-time accuracy depending on our needs and where in the supply chain we get the data. The real question is whether Neustar, TNS or friends offer a relatively turn-key live query product that allows one to query a number and get a current (i.e. based on current LRN) answer of "wireless", "RBOC", etc. Such a product would allow one to bypass an economically and technically burdensome intermediate step of querying the LERG. Just as list scrubbing products are useless for this high-risk application, so are random resellers and API providers for this data. We don't know where they're getting the data, how often it's updated, and they have a strong incentive to cache in any resale play. As Carlos said, "best effort" isn't an affirmative defence here, so nothing less than the curators of NPAC or their first-tier derivatives will do. -- Alex -- Alex?Balashov?|?Principal?|?Evariste?Systems?LLC 303?Perimeter?Center?North,?Suite?300 Atlanta,?GA?30346 United?States Tel:?+1-800-250-5920?(toll-free)?/?+1-678-954-0671 (direct) Web:?http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ Sent?from?my?Nexus 10.
participants (6)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
caalvarez＠gmail.com -
David.Hiers＠cdk.com -
Derek.Andrew＠usask.ca -
erik＠eespro.com -
ggerhard＠sansay.com