Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches. -- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
IIRC a single ulaw or alaw voice call uses about 0.08 Mbps including the overhead. I think you'll have room on your 10Mmps network -----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches. -- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
In theory, 10 Mbps is certainly plenty. But in any particular case, you've got to ask if the cabling ever used for Ethernet, or was it installed just for voice? And even if it had been used for Ethernet: it may have been dropping packets at 1% the whole time, but it was good enough for 1999 Internet, so nobody noticed. If you have a good cable bandwidth tester, it would be smart to test. Failing that, it might work to put a phone on each port, run a 10 minute call, and look at the packet loss counts on both sides, and the error rates detected on the Ethernet switch. If they're below 0.1%, then your antique cabling might just work out. Then your next hassle might be reconfiguring all the phones to use 10 Mbps. On Jan 4, 2013, at 13:40 , Eric Wieling <EWieling at nyigc.com> wrote:
IIRC a single ulaw or alaw voice call uses about 0.08 Mbps including the overhead. I think you'll have room on your 10Mmps network
-----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
Exactly what I was going to recommend. Cat3 was designed for 10BASE-T, so set up one connection and measure packet loss and jitter, preferably using UDP traffic. I've actually ran VoIP over Cat3 before (in a lab) and it worked fine. -----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Mark R Lindsey Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:53 AM To: Eric Wieling Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network In theory, 10 Mbps is certainly plenty. But in any particular case, you've got to ask if the cabling ever used for Ethernet, or was it installed just for voice? And even if it had been used for Ethernet: it may have been dropping packets at 1% the whole time, but it was good enough for 1999 Internet, so nobody noticed. If you have a good cable bandwidth tester, it would be smart to test. Failing that, it might work to put a phone on each port, run a 10 minute call, and look at the packet loss counts on both sides, and the error rates detected on the Ethernet switch. If they're below 0.1%, then your antique cabling might just work out. Then your next hassle might be reconfiguring all the phones to use 10 Mbps. On Jan 4, 2013, at 13:40 , Eric Wieling <EWieling at nyigc.com> wrote:
IIRC a single ulaw or alaw voice call uses about 0.08 Mbps including the overhead. I think you'll have room on your 10Mmps network
-----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
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Checking the cat3 cabling quality is good advice. We've had a lot of experience with old cat3 cabling that did NOT play well with newer equipment. Most of the time, we have the customer replace the old cat3 cabling if they need an analog line for paging systems, faxes, etc.,. The older cat3 may work fine with legacy analog gear, but start running digital voice over it and you'll find all the bad runs! :o Packet loss will kill your voice quality. Definitely check the quality of the cat3 runs. -----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Mark R Lindsey Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:53 AM To: Eric Wieling Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network In theory, 10 Mbps is certainly plenty. But in any particular case, you've got to ask if the cabling ever used for Ethernet, or was it installed just for voice? And even if it had been used for Ethernet: it may have been dropping packets at 1% the whole time, but it was good enough for 1999 Internet, so nobody noticed. If you have a good cable bandwidth tester, it would be smart to test. Failing that, it might work to put a phone on each port, run a 10 minute call, and look at the packet loss counts on both sides, and the error rates detected on the Ethernet switch. If they're below 0.1%, then your antique cabling might just work out. Then your next hassle might be reconfiguring all the phones to use 10 Mbps. On Jan 4, 2013, at 13:40 , Eric Wieling <EWieling at nyigc.com> wrote:
IIRC a single ulaw or alaw voice call uses about 0.08 Mbps including the overhead. I think you'll have room on your 10Mmps network
-----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Alvarez Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] VoIP on 10mb Cat 3 switched network
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
You'll most likely have to hard set the phones and or ports to 10mb I don't see a problem with it. If that fails pull new cable or put a small DSLAM and modems :-/ Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com> wrote:
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Adtran NetVanta 1535P. 50 Mbps on cat3 upto 1200 feet with PoE built into their media converter. On Jan 4, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Erik Flournoy <erik at eespro.com> wrote:
You'll most likely have to hard set the phones and or ports to 10mb I don't see a problem with it. If that fails pull new cable or put a small DSLAM and modems :-/
Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com> wrote:
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Seconded. I've been wanting an application to try it, and Adtran isn't known for writing checks they can't cash. If you try this, let me know how it works. On Jan 4, 2013, at 14:06 , "Matthew S. Crocker" <matthew at corp.crocker.com> wrote:
Adtran NetVanta 1535P. 50 Mbps on cat3 upto 1200 feet with PoE built into their media converter.
On Jan 4, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Erik Flournoy <erik at eespro.com> wrote:
You'll most likely have to hard set the phones and or ports to 10mb I don't see a problem with it. If that fails pull new cable or put a small DSLAM and modems :-/
Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com> wrote: Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Phybridge has a great solution that I'm using in some larger installations for situations such as this. http://www.phybridge.com/ On Jan 5, 2013, at 12:16 AM, Paul Timmins <paul at timmins.net<mailto:paul at timmins.net>> wrote: Seconded. I've been wanting an application to try it, and Adtran isn't known for writing checks they can't cash. If you try this, let me know how it works. On Jan 4, 2013, at 14:06 , "Matthew S. Crocker" <matthew at corp.crocker.com<mailto:matthew at corp.crocker.com>> wrote: Adtran NetVanta 1535P. 50 Mbps on cat3 upto 1200 feet with PoE built into their media converter. On Jan 4, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Erik Flournoy <erik at eespro.com<mailto:erik at eespro.com>> wrote: You'll most likely have to hard set the phones and or ports to 10mb I don't see a problem with it. If that fails pull new cable or put a small DSLAM and modems :-/ Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com<http://eespro.com/> - contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com<mailto:info at eespro.com>, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com<mailto:carlos at televolve.com>> wrote: Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches. -- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003 _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
We definitely will not be using any of the specialty devices like this. The cost is too close to the cost of simply recabling. Nobody wants to learn a new device for what is probably a one-off job. I'm going to give the customer the choice of a no-guarantee attempt to use the current cabling or have our cable contractor go out and upgrade it all. On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Paul Timmins <paul at timmins.net> wrote:
Seconded. I've been wanting an application to try it, and Adtran isn't known for writing checks they can't cash. If you try this, let me know how it works.
On Jan 4, 2013, at 14:06 , "Matthew S. Crocker" <matthew at corp.crocker.com> wrote:
Adtran NetVanta 1535P. 50 Mbps on cat3 upto 1200 feet with PoE built into their media converter.
On Jan 4, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Erik Flournoy <erik at eespro.com> wrote:
You'll most likely have to hard set the phones and or ports to 10mb I don't see a problem with it. If that fails pull new cable or put a small DSLAM and modems :-/
Erik Flournoy 808-426-4527 301-218-7325
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail message, including any attachments from EESPRO.com<http://eespro.com/>- contain information which is CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. The information is intended only for the use of the individual named above and may not be disseminated to any other party without written permission. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify info at eespro.com, and permanently delete this e-mail and the attachments hereto, if any, and destroy any printout thereof.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com>wrote:
Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3 cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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-- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
Hi Carlos Has anyone had experience successfully running VoIP over 10mb Cat 3
cabling? A new customer has asked, because that's what they have in place. I'm not interested in an unreliable solution just to save a few bucks, but in theory it should work reliably to have a dedicated 10mb to each phone and then gigabit out of the main switches.
I'd be careful because your description says one thing to me: "old". Old cabling is bad news. Considering 90% of network funnies stem from cabling but it is often the last thing to get checked you might have issues with loss. Then there's the switches. Are they switches or are they hubs? If hubs, forget it. If switches, are they supporting full duplex or are you looking at 5Mb each way? Managed or unmanaged - I'd suspect unmanaged in which case you're not going to be able to do a dedicated voice VLAN or manage QoS. That all points to jitter of varying degrees given either congestion or simple serialisation delay. Putting it altogether I think you risk problems. Of course, if the switches are managed and you can manage QoS and/or run a dedicated voice VLAN and the cabling tests ok, you should be ok. It is certainly fine in a lab in lab conditions since as OPs have said, the bandwidth is ample. It comes down to how much the cabling, switches, and other traffic undermines your efforts in the end. All the best Simon -- Simon Woodhead Simwood eSMS Limited http://www.simwood.com -- ***** Email confidentiality notice ***** This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system. Simwood eSMS Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 03379831. Registered office: c/o HW Chartered Accountants, Keepers Lane, The Wergs, Wolverhampton, WV6 8UA. Trading address: Falcon Drive, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff, CF10 4RU.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Simon Woodhead <simon.woodhead at simwood.com>wrote:
Then there's the switches. Are they switches or are they hubs? If hubs, forget it. If switches, are they supporting full duplex or are you looking at 5Mb each way? Managed or unmanaged - I'd suspect unmanaged in which case you're not going to be able to do a dedicated voice VLAN or manage QoS. That all points to jitter of varying degrees given either congestion or simple serialisation delay.
I was careful to specify it would be a switched network. We'd be putting in new switches. The cabling is likely old, and was used with a standard PBX previously. My question was really about experience, not theory, and some of you shared some very useful stuff. I know in theory it "should" work, and I know old cabling can have myriad problems. Reality often works out very different from theory. In all likelihood, if we took this route, it would have a contractual caveat that problems may be blamed on the cabling and they'd have to swap it out. -- Carlos Alvarez TelEvolve 602-889-3003
I was careful to specify it would be a switched network. We'd be putting
in new switches. The cabling is likely old, and was used with a standard PBX previously.
I know you said switches but it wasn't clear [to me] you'd be putting in new ones. I've had no end of arguments with IT administrators who don't know the difference so assumed you may be basing the enquiry on third party information.
My question was really about experience, not theory, and some of you shared some very useful stuff. I know in theory it "should" work, and I know old cabling can have myriad problems. Reality often works out very different from theory. In all likelihood, if we took this route, it would have a contractual caveat that problems may be blamed on the cabling and they'd have to swap it out.
Contract sounds good but I'd still be inclined to get a tester on there if only to weed out the cables that will have issues. Simon -- ***** Email confidentiality notice ***** This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system. Simwood eSMS Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 03379831. Registered office: c/o HW Chartered Accountants, Keepers Lane, The Wergs, Wolverhampton, WV6 8UA. Trading address: Falcon Drive, Cardiff Bay, Cardiff, CF10 4RU.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 1/4/2013 2:29 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Simon Woodhead <simon.woodhead at simwood.com>wrote:
Then there's the switches. Are they switches or are they hubs? If hubs, forget it. If switches, are they supporting full duplex or are you looking at 5Mb each way? Managed or unmanaged - I'd suspect unmanaged in which case you're not going to be able to do a dedicated voice VLAN or manage QoS. That all points to jitter of varying degrees given either congestion or simple serialisation delay.
I was careful to specify it would be a switched network. We'd be putting in new switches. The cabling is likely old, and was used with a standard PBX previously.
My question was really about experience, not theory, and some of you shared some very useful stuff. I know in theory it "should" work, and I know old cabling can have myriad problems. Reality often works out very different from theory. In all likelihood, if we took this route, it would have a contractual caveat that problems may be blamed on the cabling and they'd have to swap it out.
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I'll second a previous comment about hard-coding speed/duplex to 10Mbps. While it goes against the grain (or should) for most data folks to not use auto-negotiation, this is a case where you might run into trouble if you leave it on. I have experience reusing "old" CAT3 for switched ethernet (some installed for voice, some for data networking). The end devices will try (and is some cases may succeed) to negotiation 100Mbps; it caused nothing but trouble. Hard coded everything to 10M and things stabilized. A few of the more savvy users questioned us, but we explained the situation. Good luck. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJQ5zNNAAoJEBxhAh+LWUKiEPYH/1xBNwIPK45KzxR+qVb5/1ZG TbsSpBqDAwZJo8mJc/UB0kPXnl1f5SOko5erQLC3/wUlCqhbcL4WUdhbHuBIQJYO u1/AV/+/avu/gd5cKQ1EknoutLNXNBvCiYPuuz4awE8bAgkMMz3kWnpASPemQxxw omMn0dnedpmIidfBIRsyxClfZYVeCdBM3JhMrl8siFa9aYmmRHYeS+Cv6uws4Arh 2K17z8BjhDbQaYXXHyGLNZoNz0VYSEKxk5iZkC4d48msdxyPHk6YmYqw6ETJsc38 DDq3gGARVRDgWHTKD2ckT6qOIbCEgrc8czkNdt5lZAo3wFzlTau/c0x4P4OcPSo= =zj5A -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Alvarez" <carlos at televolve.com>
I was careful to specify it would be a switched network. We'd be putting in new switches. The cabling is likely old, and was used with a standard PBX previously.
And here is the most important bit. Everyone's advice amounts to "10mbs cabling isn't a problem because it's 10 mbs... it's because 10mbs means it's old". And you've provided the other important bit: it wasn't originally being used for Ethernet. That strips off a whole-nother layer of good assumptions we can make about the installed cabling, like that it used to successfully pass 10mb/s ethernet traffic. I gather that's not true, so you will probably have to reterminate all of it, and you aren't completely guaranteed that some voice guy didn't take voice-grade liberties with it in the middle, like 66 blocks or beanies, which will *also* downcheck it for data, even at 10mbs. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA #natog +1 727 647 1274
participants (12)
-
akg1330＠gmail.com -
carlos＠televolve.com -
clintm＠ringcentral.com -
david＠ringfree.biz -
Eric.Jastak＠adp.com -
erik＠eespro.com -
EWieling＠nyigc.com -
jra＠baylink.com -
lindsey＠e-c-group.com -
matthew＠corp.crocker.com -
paul＠timmins.net -
simon.woodhead＠simwood.com