some of my customers DID show as Possible Spam
We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call, Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ? has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ? -- Izzy G
I suppose it would depend on how that's being generated. Is there some third party reputation service being used? Is it just based off of STIR/SHAKEN attestation? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo" <igoldstein at telego.net> To: "Voiceops.org" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:11:58 AM Subject: [VoiceOps] some of my customers DID show as Possible Spam We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call, Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ? has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ? -- Izzy G _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Izzy, Have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8iqgZ5bLaw&feature=youtu.be On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 10:16 AM Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo < igoldstein at telego.net> wrote:
We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc
I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call,
Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ?
has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ?
--
Izzy G _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I think the talk I linked in my previous post actually speaks to this really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8iqgZ5bLaw Short answer: there?s likely no specific reason these DIDs were flagged.
On Nov 15, 2021, at 10:11 AM, Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo <igoldstein at telego.net> wrote:
We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc
I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call,
Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ?
has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ?
-- Izzy G _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
We get this frequently as well. It?s concerning that it normally comes from newly ported customers. But the carrier always states that it is most likely the recipients spam service. I send my customers the same KB every time. Many times legitimate numbers show up as spam on Mobile carriers' spam filter list. While, there is not much we can do currently as these lists are predominately ?crowd sourced?, we can provide you with information on how to request your numbers be removed Verizon Wireless ? https://voicespamfeedback.com/vsf/ Tmobile/Sprint ? https://calltransparency.com/ ATT ? https://hiya.com/manageyourcallerid Thanks, Shripal
On Nov 15, 2021, at 10:16 AM, Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo <igoldstein at telego.net> wrote:
? We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc
I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call,
Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ?
has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ?
-- Izzy G _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Hi, Yes, only with MS Teams. Here is some more info: https://erik365.blog/2021/08/15/microsoft-teams-spam-call-notifications/ [logo Hello BV] Peter Batenburg CLOUD EXPERTS Hello bv ZAAKVOERDER [Facebook]<https://www.facebook.com/hellosocials> [Instagram] <https://www.instagram.com/hello_socials/> [LinkedIn] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/hello-socials> [https://www.hello.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/tel.png] +32 470 69 34 79<tel:+32470693479> Rubenstraat 165/3 - 2300 Turnhout +32 14 94 65 16<tel:+3214946516> ? www.hello.be<https://www.hello.be/> [https://www.hello.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mail.png] peter at hello.be<mailto:peter at hello.be> Van: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> Namens Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo Verzonden: 15 November 2021 16:12 Aan: Voiceops.org <voiceops at voiceops.org> Onderwerp: [VoiceOps] some of my customers DID show as Possible Spam [EXTERNAL EMAIL] DO NOT CLICK links or attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call, Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ? has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ? -- Izzy G
I brought this up on the list previously, you can probably go find that last discussion. We have two customers who see this all the time. Primary problem is with T-Mobile, where anyone can mark things. It's social or crowd-sourced "intelligence." Then a few other companies started doing the same, and customers can download a call marking app. The two customers who have this problem often are call centers. One doing medical billing, the other doing legit market research and polling. For example right now they are calling on behalf of cities to find out what citizens would like the council to focus on. But some people retaliate against the billing or don't care to be part of the city system, marking the calls. Additionally, some of these systems just look for short call times and patterns of lots of calls from the same DID. We haven't found any solution other than rolling CLIDs. What type of customer do you see this with? What kind/length of calls? On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 8:16 AM Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo < igoldstein at telego.net> wrote:
We get Support Tickets from our clients that when they call their Customers, their customers see the call from Possible or Potential Spam etc
I reached out to our vendor we use for Termination, who is an aggregator and they say the issue is with the person getting the call,
Why is this happening to my customers DIDs? We get this complaint from several of our clients Could it be that our vendor is using a bad carrier to terminate the calls? could it be some spammer used my customers DID as their ANI so it got flagged as spam ?
has anyone dealt with this or a similar issue ?
--
Izzy G _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 11/15/21 09:20, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
I brought this up on the list previously, you can probably go find that last discussion.? We have two customers who see this all the time. Primary problem is with T-Mobile, where anyone can mark things.? It's social or crowd-sourced "intelligence."? Then a few other companies started doing the same, and customers can download a call marking app.
From the video linked here earlier, it looks like it's much more than call marking. It's also pattern recognition, average call duration, and other factors.
The two customers who have this problem often are call centers.? One doing medical billing, the other doing legit market research and polling.
If I were a T-Mobile subscriber, I'd definitely want calls from "legit market research and polling" companies to my cell phone so marked. Certainly so in the weeks before an election, and probably year round. Likewise, if I were in debt to medical providers to the point where I was getting calls from collection agencies, I probably would want those flagged as well. Carriers are going to do things that benefit their relationship with their subscribers, not things that benefit a non-customer outbound call center. If the carrier's subscribers raise a stink about false positives, they will probably make an effort to fix it. -- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
iConectiv just sent an email today about a service they are doing with CTIA www.registeredcaller.com I'm sure other CNAM providers will come out with similar products. On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:48 AM Jay Hennigan <jay at west.net> wrote:
On 11/15/21 09:20, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
I brought this up on the list previously, you can probably go find that last discussion. We have two customers who see this all the time. Primary problem is with T-Mobile, where anyone can mark things. It's social or crowd-sourced "intelligence." Then a few other companies started doing the same, and customers can download a call marking app.
From the video linked here earlier, it looks like it's much more than call marking. It's also pattern recognition, average call duration, and other factors.
The two customers who have this problem often are call centers. One doing medical billing, the other doing legit market research and polling.
If I were a T-Mobile subscriber, I'd definitely want calls from "legit market research and polling" companies to my cell phone so marked. Certainly so in the weeks before an election, and probably year round.
Likewise, if I were in debt to medical providers to the point where I was getting calls from collection agencies, I probably would want those flagged as well.
Carriers are going to do things that benefit their relationship with their subscribers, not things that benefit a non-customer outbound call center. If the carrier's subscribers raise a stink about false positives, they will probably make an effort to fix it.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
You cut out the part where it was their city government calling, wanting to know what the citizens would like "fixed" and focused on in the communities. You'd opt out of this? Do you also not vote? Also not a collection agency, it's the primary biller, and the customer has opted into the calls in writing. If they go to collections, my customer actually sends them out. They only do the gentle calls, which also includes appointments. So by marking them bad, they may also not receive calls to set consultations with their doctor. On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jay Hennigan <jay at west.net> wrote:
On 11/15/21 09:20, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
I brought this up on the list previously, you can probably go find that last discussion. We have two customers who see this all the time. Primary problem is with T-Mobile, where anyone can mark things. It's social or crowd-sourced "intelligence." Then a few other companies started doing the same, and customers can download a call marking app.
From the video linked here earlier, it looks like it's much more than call marking. It's also pattern recognition, average call duration, and other factors.
The two customers who have this problem often are call centers. One doing medical billing, the other doing legit market research and polling.
If I were a T-Mobile subscriber, I'd definitely want calls from "legit market research and polling" companies to my cell phone so marked. Certainly so in the weeks before an election, and probably year round.
Likewise, if I were in debt to medical providers to the point where I was getting calls from collection agencies, I probably would want those flagged as well.
Carriers are going to do things that benefit their relationship with their subscribers, not things that benefit a non-customer outbound call center. If the carrier's subscribers raise a stink about false positives, they will probably make an effort to fix it.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 11/15/21 16:01, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
You cut out the part where it was their city government calling, wanting to know what the citizens would like "fixed" and focused on in the communities.? You'd opt out of this?? Do you also not vote?
I vote with a ballot at a polling place or by mail, not by engaging with random unsolicited call center workers. I've found that political polling calls and survey calls are often "push" polls, often rather invasive in terms of personal questions, lengthier than needed, and interrupt me at inopportune times. Politicians and survey companies lobbied to get themselves excluded from the TCPA and the result is that the only mass unsolicited calls that those on the DNC list get are from spammers/scammers and politicians/pollsters. In my opinion the politicians made a mistake with their lobbying. They should honor Do Not Call listings. They're making unsolicited bulk calls to those who specifically went through a process to say that they don't want them.
Also not a collection agency, it's the primary biller, and the customer has opted into the calls in writing.? If they go to collections, my customer actually sends them out.? They only do the gentle calls, which also includes appointments.? So by marking them bad, they may also not receive calls to set consultations with their doctor.
I'm not disagreeing that it's a real problem for both your customer and in some cases those that they are trying to reach. Your problem is that your customer's operation passes the duck test. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck. Multiple calls in succession and/or simultaneously from the same ANI, a high percentage of which disconnect within seconds with the BYE coming from the customer side (they are immediately getting hung-up on), some of which are to numbers on the Do Not Call list, as well as many customer flags as spam calls. Is your customer is using a predictive dialer? If so, the called parties have gotten very attuned to the dead silence for a second or two after answer and that at least in my case will pretty much assure an immediate disconnect from the called party side, a big red flag for the algorithm. It's a tough situation but from the carrier's perspective they are offering their paying subscribers a benefit that the subscribers want. Your customer needs to make their operation behave less like a duck. The video suggests several tweaks. Of course the spammers are also going to try to crack the algorithms, so it's a cat-and-mouse game. STIR-SHAKEN will help. An honest CNAM will help. -- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
Neither use predictive, but have live humans dialing. Both leave a message on VM if nobody is there so the calls are not short duration. The one calling for governments (and power companies, and such) are not calling for politicians. They are calling for the sitting body of government, or the energy supplier, etc. They also respect the DNC, but nobody puts themselves on that any more. They just hit "spam" on their call blocking apps. These chickens are being marked as ducks. I get that consumers are fed up, now they are creating their own new problem. The only thing these customers have not tried is the five minute rolling CLID. And for the medical practice one, that's problematic since they are trying to use a specific number that will get known. So most patients do answer it, some percentage instead consider it spam. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:33 AM Jay Hennigan <jay at west.net> wrote:
On 11/15/21 16:01, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
You cut out the part where it was their city government calling, wanting to know what the citizens would like "fixed" and focused on in the communities. You'd opt out of this? Do you also not vote?
I vote with a ballot at a polling place or by mail, not by engaging with random unsolicited call center workers. I've found that political polling calls and survey calls are often "push" polls, often rather invasive in terms of personal questions, lengthier than needed, and interrupt me at inopportune times. Politicians and survey companies lobbied to get themselves excluded from the TCPA and the result is that the only mass unsolicited calls that those on the DNC list get are from spammers/scammers and politicians/pollsters.
In my opinion the politicians made a mistake with their lobbying. They should honor Do Not Call listings. They're making unsolicited bulk calls to those who specifically went through a process to say that they don't want them.
Also not a collection agency, it's the primary biller, and the customer has opted into the calls in writing. If they go to collections, my customer actually sends them out. They only do the gentle calls, which also includes appointments. So by marking them bad, they may also not receive calls to set consultations with their doctor.
I'm not disagreeing that it's a real problem for both your customer and in some cases those that they are trying to reach. Your problem is that your customer's operation passes the duck test. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck.
Multiple calls in succession and/or simultaneously from the same ANI, a high percentage of which disconnect within seconds with the BYE coming from the customer side (they are immediately getting hung-up on), some of which are to numbers on the Do Not Call list, as well as many customer flags as spam calls.
Is your customer is using a predictive dialer? If so, the called parties have gotten very attuned to the dead silence for a second or two after answer and that at least in my case will pretty much assure an immediate disconnect from the called party side, a big red flag for the algorithm.
It's a tough situation but from the carrier's perspective they are offering their paying subscribers a benefit that the subscribers want. Your customer needs to make their operation behave less like a duck. The video suggests several tweaks. Of course the spammers are also going to try to crack the algorithms, so it's a cat-and-mouse game. STIR-SHAKEN will help. An honest CNAM will help.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I think you're conflating politician SPAM marketing and government body research. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Hennigan" <jay at west.net> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:22:06 AM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] some of my customers DID show as Possible Spam On 11/15/21 16:01, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
You cut out the part where it was their city government calling, wanting to know what the citizens would like "fixed" and focused on in the communities. You'd opt out of this? Do you also not vote?
I vote with a ballot at a polling place or by mail, not by engaging with random unsolicited call center workers. I've found that political polling calls and survey calls are often "push" polls, often rather invasive in terms of personal questions, lengthier than needed, and interrupt me at inopportune times. Politicians and survey companies lobbied to get themselves excluded from the TCPA and the result is that the only mass unsolicited calls that those on the DNC list get are from spammers/scammers and politicians/pollsters. In my opinion the politicians made a mistake with their lobbying. They should honor Do Not Call listings. They're making unsolicited bulk calls to those who specifically went through a process to say that they don't want them.
Also not a collection agency, it's the primary biller, and the customer has opted into the calls in writing. If they go to collections, my customer actually sends them out. They only do the gentle calls, which also includes appointments. So by marking them bad, they may also not receive calls to set consultations with their doctor.
I'm not disagreeing that it's a real problem for both your customer and in some cases those that they are trying to reach. Your problem is that your customer's operation passes the duck test. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck. Multiple calls in succession and/or simultaneously from the same ANI, a high percentage of which disconnect within seconds with the BYE coming from the customer side (they are immediately getting hung-up on), some of which are to numbers on the Do Not Call list, as well as many customer flags as spam calls. Is your customer is using a predictive dialer? If so, the called parties have gotten very attuned to the dead silence for a second or two after answer and that at least in my case will pretty much assure an immediate disconnect from the called party side, a big red flag for the algorithm. It's a tough situation but from the carrier's perspective they are offering their paying subscribers a benefit that the subscribers want. Your customer needs to make their operation behave less like a duck. The video suggests several tweaks. Of course the spammers are also going to try to crack the algorithms, so it's a cat-and-mouse game. STIR-SHAKEN will help. An honest CNAM will help. -- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 11/19/21 06:46, Mike Hammett wrote:
I think you're conflating politician SPAM marketing and government body research.
They're both unsolicited and bulk. There's a rather blurry line between a government body research survey and a political message. Government bodies are run by politicians, after all. Being alerted that an incoming call is unsolicited and bulk before answering is a good thing for the consumer IMHO. If I'm busy I'll let it go to voice mail. If they actually care, they'll leave a message. If it's relevant I'll call them back at my convenience. If it's not, that's a minute or two of my time not wasted. The volume of unsolicited bulk phone calls today is such that many people simply don't answer the phone unless they recognize the CNAM or caller-ID. If you're running a legitimate outbound call center, be prepared to leave messages on voicemail. Maybe a display of "BULK CALL" instead of "SPAM RISK" would be a good compromise, but as a consumer I appreciate knowing in advance. -- Jay Hennigan - jay at west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
participants (9)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
caalvarez＠gmail.com -
dovid＠telecurve.com -
igoldstein＠telego.net -
jared＠compuwizz.net -
jay＠west.net -
peter＠hello.be -
shripald＠gmail.com -
voiceops＠ics-il.net