ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer
Hi, So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones. Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between: (1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers; (2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them. I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it. Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android? As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work? Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long". But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
PS. Yes, I am aware that SHAKEN and STIR are the industry's proposed solutions to these problems. But ... wake me up when that's actually a thing. And given how complicated it is and how many problematic moving parts are involved, I am not certain it's ever going to be a thing. In the meantime, how should one deal with this issue _now_? On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 06:27:19PM -0400, Alex Balashov wrote:
Hi,
So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones.
Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between:
(1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers;
(2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them.
I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it.
Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android?
As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work?
Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long".
But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative.
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC
Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
On mobile I'm pretty sure this is how they all do it, but don't know how they get their data: https://hiya.com/uk/ Used by for example https://www.samsung.com/uk/apps/smart-call/ I've tried to approach them in the UK for a feed too. We had a customer get their number out of that database by using their online forms too.
Interesting https://businesses.hiya.com/lookup/44/1224900123 our office number. Doesn't say our company!
Hi Alex, I have no idea how it is actually done, but there are lots of useful metrics just lying around that one could use. Things like: The last time a specific terminating number called a specific originating number Number of calls Rate of calls Ratio of originated/terminated calls Time of day ASR Call duration Like any kind of dynamic reputation metric (credit score, IP Address reputation, credit card fraud detection, etc), I bet the actual secret-sauce is pretty closely held. Gotta be some patents in this area, though. I'll also bet double that you could come up with a wicked method for weeding out the "probably unwanted" calls! David -----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:27 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer Hi, So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones. Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between: (1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers; (2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them. I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it. Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android? As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work? Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long". But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative. -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
Thanks, David. Setting aside the question of "how" - I agree with your speculations on the "sauce", "where" is it done? Do the US mobile majors do this at the network level? Do some of them use Google's service for it, which as I understand is baked into the Android Phone app but may not be enabled? What about on iDevices? I'm not really concerned with people who use apps to screen telemarketers. They're just not a big factor for me; most people do not use these apps. I'm interested in what happens by default without the user's intervention. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:00:49PM +0000, Hiers, David wrote:
Hi Alex, I have no idea how it is actually done, but there are lots of useful metrics just lying around that one could use. Things like:
The last time a specific terminating number called a specific originating number Number of calls Rate of calls Ratio of originated/terminated calls Time of day ASR Call duration
Like any kind of dynamic reputation metric (credit score, IP Address reputation, credit card fraud detection, etc), I bet the actual secret-sauce is pretty closely held. Gotta be some patents in this area, though.
I'll also bet double that you could come up with a wicked method for weeding out the "probably unwanted" calls!
David
-----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:27 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer
Hi,
So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones.
Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between:
(1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers;
(2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them.
I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it.
Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android?
As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work?
Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long".
But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative.
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC
Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
---------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
T-Mobile definitely does it on the network level and my iPhone shows Scam Likely sometimes. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:04 PM Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
Thanks, David.
Setting aside the question of "how" - I agree with your speculations on the "sauce", "where" is it done? Do the US mobile majors do this at the network level? Do some of them use Google's service for it, which as I understand is baked into the Android Phone app but may not be enabled? What about on iDevices?
I'm not really concerned with people who use apps to screen telemarketers. They're just not a big factor for me; most people do not use these apps. I'm interested in what happens by default without the user's intervention.
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:00:49PM +0000, Hiers, David wrote:
Hi Alex, I have no idea how it is actually done, but there are lots of useful metrics just lying around that one could use. Things like:
The last time a specific terminating number called a specific originating number Number of calls Rate of calls Ratio of originated/terminated calls Time of day ASR Call duration
Like any kind of dynamic reputation metric (credit score, IP Address reputation, credit card fraud detection, etc), I bet the actual secret-sauce is pretty closely held. Gotta be some patents in this area, though.
I'll also bet double that you could come up with a wicked method for weeding out the "probably unwanted" calls!
David
-----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:27 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer
Hi,
So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones.
Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between:
(1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers;
(2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them.
I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it.
Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android?
As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work?
Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long".
But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative.
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC
Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
---------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC
Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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I agree with you, but, not running a call centre or a sales or marketing operation myself, I am not qualified to assess the business ROI of calling people. It clearly works well though or they wouldn't do it. From what I can see, there is widespread agreement that it only works 1) if you get to the lead first and 2) if you actually get a warm body on the phone. Leaving voicemails is seen to be a pointless waste of time from a conversion point of view, or in the case of lead gen where multiple providers buy the lead info (e.g. say you go to some site that quotes out auto insurance policy info and put in your contact details), coming in second or worse is also seen to be a pointless waste of time. On August 30, 2018 10:05:17 PM EDT, Glen Gerhard <glen at cognexus.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Sent from mobile. Kindly excuse brevity and errors.
One thing that hasn't happened yet - and it should - is that networks, app providers and individual users are held responsible for labels they put (or help put) on numbers. Let's remember at least some of the telemarketing is conducted by legitimate organizations with valid (and legal) existing business relationships. Labeling a legitimate number as scam is detrimental to business and I am surprised there hasn't been a flurry of cease and desist letters to force carriers to stop doing it or at least introduce a validation/vetting mechanism. If someone posted a Yelp review saying they found rat feet in their hamburger, and this wasn't true, Yelp would have to remove this review and the restaurant would have legitimate grounds to go after the poster. The caller ID "screening" space is still a bit of Wild West... But as Glen pointed out, that could be just due to overall drop in interest and efficacy of legitimate telemarketing. Ivan Kovacevic www.startelecom.ca -----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: August 30, 2018 11:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer I agree with you, but, not running a call centre or a sales or marketing operation myself, I am not qualified to assess the business ROI of calling people. It clearly works well though or they wouldn't do it. From what I can see, there is widespread agreement that it only works 1) if you get to the lead first and 2) if you actually get a warm body on the phone. Leaving voicemails is seen to be a pointless waste of time from a conversion point of view, or in the case of lead gen where multiple providers buy the lead info (e.g. say you go to some site that quotes out auto insurance policy info and put in your contact details), coming in second or worse is also seen to be a pointless waste of time. On August 30, 2018 10:05:17 PM EDT, Glen Gerhard <glen at cognexus.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Sent from mobile. Kindly excuse brevity and errors. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message.
I no longer work with telemarketing call centers at all for various reasons. But I do work with a few who do different kinds of calling. One in particular is especially challenged by these things, and I've talked to Alex about building systems to rotate CLID for them regularly. They do market research. For example, they will call people on behalf of the local electric company to see how they can improve. Or do followup calls for a major national medical group after appointments to assure satisfaction. If you own one of the two major phone brands, they may contact you about product improvements, overall satisfaction, and the like. Anyway, totally legit, not sales. But they MUST reach a person directly. It's not statistically valid research if you call them back, or if you call them on your own. It's a lengthy explanation, but basically if they leave a VM and wait for a call back, the people who choose to call are the most biased. They are most likely to have either praise or an axe to grind. They will be someone who has something to say. They also need a balanced view from people who wouldn't care enough to reach out. The exact numbers are proprietary, but during a recent experiment on rotating CLID, we found that production of valid calls went up by just over triple against the number that had been marked spam/scam. That's no exaggeration at all. Oh, this week I needed help with an Apple issue. Their call went straight to VM. Turns out TrueCaller has Apple's main national number marked as scam/spam. What the hell people? I have been saying that these filtering apps will at some point have marked so many numbers that they will stop being useful. When Apple, who does zero telemarketing, gets marked like that, it's already here. I've also received "new" blocks that were already marked in some way. On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 6:24 AM Ivan Kovacevic < ivan.kovacevic at startelecom.ca> wrote:
One thing that hasn't happened yet - and it should - is that networks, app providers and individual users are held responsible for labels they put (or help put) on numbers. Let's remember at least some of the telemarketing is conducted by legitimate organizations with valid (and legal) existing business relationships. Labeling a legitimate number as scam is detrimental to business and I am surprised there hasn't been a flurry of cease and desist letters to force carriers to stop doing it or at least introduce a validation/vetting mechanism.
If someone posted a Yelp review saying they found rat feet in their hamburger, and this wasn't true, Yelp would have to remove this review and the restaurant would have legitimate grounds to go after the poster. The caller ID "screening" space is still a bit of Wild West... But as Glen pointed out, that could be just due to overall drop in interest and efficacy of legitimate telemarketing.
Ivan Kovacevic www.startelecom.ca
-----Original Message----- From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: August 30, 2018 11:37 PM To: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] ANIs flagged as telemarketer/spammer/scammer
I agree with you, but, not running a call centre or a sales or marketing operation myself, I am not qualified to assess the business ROI of calling people.
It clearly works well though or they wouldn't do it. From what I can see, there is widespread agreement that it only works 1) if you get to the lead first and 2) if you actually get a warm body on the phone.
Leaving voicemails is seen to be a pointless waste of time from a conversion point of view, or in the case of lead gen where multiple providers buy the lead info (e.g. say you go to some site that quotes out auto insurance policy info and put in your contact details), coming in second or worse is also seen to be a pointless waste of time.
On August 30, 2018 10:05:17 PM EDT, Glen Gerhard <glen at cognexus.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Sent from mobile. Kindly excuse brevity and errors. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
--
NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I agree with this assessment. Using stock buy-backs to pump your own stock price and break 1T is shady, and I've never met an actual genius at a genius bar. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread... On 8/31/2018 11:00 AM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Oh, this week I needed help with an Apple issue.? Their call went straight to VM.? Turns out TrueCaller has Apple's main national number marked as scam/spam.
LOL, well stock aside, I do want to get their customer service call to help me resolve something. And I met a NASA PHD from the Apollo program at the genius bar. Granted, he was another customer like me, but still AT the bar. Their stock also helped by my house, so I'm biased (in at $38, out at $400). On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 1:17 PM Ryan Delgrosso <ryandelgrosso at gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with this assessment. Using stock buy-backs to pump your own stock price and break 1T is shady, and I've never met an actual genius at a genius bar.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
On 8/31/2018 11:00 AM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Oh, this week I needed help with an Apple issue. Their call went straight to VM. Turns out TrueCaller has Apple's main national number marked as scam/spam.
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
So today its mostly reputation scoring aggregators. The two biggest that come to mind are whitepages.com (they own Hiya) and NextCaller. There is some secret sauce, but the scoring algorithm is based on incoming query volume, LERG lookups, LIDB lookups, and of course user feedback from the freemium app Hiya which is in wide distribution. I know nextcaller has some deeper hooks with major providers allowing them more accurate info (such as correlating an active call on the owning provider with the call youre dipping about etc), but their focus isnt SPIT protection, its an enterprise focused product and is priced as such. Google (Android) now ships with this in the OS, and I presume they are leveraging one of these datasources since the call classifications match my whitepages dips. For network providers doing this, its generally just an appserver the call passes through that will do the dip, and modify the call headers for later behavioral changes (or at least that's how I have built it and seen it implemented). In a freeswitch ecosystem I just build the dialplan conditionally based upon the dip (so changing PAI or potentially even punting to VM). I have reached out to my contact with whitepages.com about how to contest an inaccurate ranking in the past, and they dont see well equipped to do much about it yet, BUT in my case it was a newly assigned number that had been previously used by a bad actor and abandoned. It righted itself pretty quick when the bad call volumes stopped. On 8/30/2018 3:27 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
Hi,
So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones.
Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between:
(1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers;
(2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them.
I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it.
Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android?
As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work?
Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long".
But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative.
Dug up this old thread to say that this talk by Matt Florell of ViciDIAL fame might be edifying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8iqgZ5bLaw ? Alex
On Aug 31, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Ryan Delgrosso <ryandelgrosso at gmail.com> wrote:
So today its mostly reputation scoring aggregators.
The two biggest that come to mind are whitepages.com (they own Hiya) and NextCaller.
There is some secret sauce, but the scoring algorithm is based on incoming query volume, LERG lookups, LIDB lookups, and of course user feedback from the freemium app Hiya which is in wide distribution.
I know nextcaller has some deeper hooks with major providers allowing them more accurate info (such as correlating an active call on the owning provider with the call youre dipping about etc), but their focus isnt SPIT protection, its an enterprise focused product and is priced as such.
Google (Android) now ships with this in the OS, and I presume they are leveraging one of these datasources since the call classifications match my whitepages dips. For network providers doing this, its generally just an appserver the call passes through that will do the dip, and modify the call headers for later behavioral changes (or at least that's how I have built it and seen it implemented). In a freeswitch ecosystem I just build the dialplan conditionally based upon the dip (so changing PAI or potentially even punting to VM).
I have reached out to my contact with whitepages.com about how to contest an inaccurate ranking in the past, and they dont see well equipped to do much about it yet, BUT in my case it was a newly assigned number that had been previously used by a bad actor and abandoned. It righted itself pretty quick when the bad call volumes stopped.
On 8/30/2018 3:27 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
Hi,
So, of course, it is a known problem in the legitimate side of the lead engagement call centre, survey, etc. business that ANIs get flagged as "telemarketer" pretty quickly and start showing up that way on people's phones.
Your normative viewpoint on that may vary depending on what you think of lead gen calls, but regardless, a reasonable person would differentiate between:
(1) Legitimate outbound dialing operations that are following up with leads who provided their phone number and agreed to be called (at least, as a matter of clicking "accept" on _something_), or for some other legitimate mass-dialing purpose, and who actually own the DID inventory from which they present local-market ANIs and can in fact be reached on those numbers;
(2) Illegal spammers who use fake ANIs and call people who did not in any way consent to being called by them.
I am trying to learn a bit more about how this is done and what a legitimate, above-board business can do about it.
Ignoring the factor of third-party call-screening apps (which most people with a mobile don't use), where is this generally implemented? As I understand it, T-Mobile do it on the network level. I have T-Mobile myself, and probably 2/3rds of unfamiliar numbers, including quite legitimate ones, show up as "Scam Likely" ? I know that's come up on the list before. AT&T displays "Telemarketer"; do they do it that way too, or do they use a Google Android feature for that which they enable as part of their carrier defaults for carrier-issued phones? What about other carriers and Android?
As far as I know, Apple don't do anything like this. Do people with iPhones just not receive this "service"? How does that work?
Asking where the central, or the most influential authority lies and who provides it goes to the heart of the real question, which is: what can a legitimate business do if their number has been blacklisted this way? As I understand it, the maintainers of these lists, along with the criteria for getting on them, are elusive and inscrutable, and there's really no recourse and no appeals process. I furthermore understand that this has led to the widespread approach of rotating ANIs, but that's a losing battle; they get flagged too. I imagine it won't be long before the criteria for "Scam Likely" are just "number appears to call lots of numbers in this rate centre and otherwise hasn't been around very long".
But this is all just conjecture on my part; I really don't know much about how my carrier, anyone's carrier, or some BigCo that's behind my mobile OS decides that a call is a "telemarketer" or "scam" call. If anyone can shed some light on how this really works and what, if anything can be done about it, I would be most appreciative.
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-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
participants (8)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
caalvarez＠gmail.com -
compuwizz＠gmail.com -
David.Hiers＠cdk.com -
ghenry＠suretec.co.uk -
glen＠cognexus.net -
ivan.kovacevic＠startelecom.ca -
ryandelgrosso＠gmail.com