Number Portability Within a Carrier
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies. The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this: Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider / When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed. I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong? So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away? Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your tier 1 is competent, they're passing CSR requests and providing some sort of loss notification. If they fail to provide same, well, then they're not competent. On Oct 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
The problem is that I have no way of (a) knowing if they are competent and my provider is incompetent or (b) the tier 1 is incompetent. And if it is the tier 1, are you saying I'm simply SOL? Regardless of who is and who isn't, I'm hoping someone has figured out how to figure it out and to share their inside knowledge. On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Paul Timmins wrote:
If your tier 1 is competent, they're passing CSR requests and providing some sort of loss notification.
If they fail to provide same, well, then they're not competent.
On Oct 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, the easy (?) way is to make a test call, or open a ticket with your tier 1. But yes, I was stating directly that if your tier 1 doesn't provide you notification of line loss, they're incompetent. In order to take your numbers away, the tier 1 would have to be involved (obviously) so if they don't notify you of a loss of customer, then that's just ridiculous. Generally, you can't tell otherwise, as the only difference between you and someone else is a route index in their switch, and a change to their billing system to account for usage. If you don't have access to one of those two items, you can't tell directly. -Paul On Oct 11, 2012, at 0:46 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
The problem is that I have no way of (a) knowing if they are competent and my provider is incompetent or (b) the tier 1 is incompetent. And if it is the tier 1, are you saying I'm simply SOL? Regardless of who is and who isn't, I'm hoping someone has figured out how to figure it out and to share their inside knowledge.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Paul Timmins wrote:
If your tier 1 is competent, they're passing CSR requests and providing some sort of loss notification.
If they fail to provide same, well, then they're not competent.
On Oct 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In his example the tier 1 carrier is not changing. There is no formal LNP port being done. The tier 2 is changing but both tier 2 carriers use the same tier 1. The solution is to become tier 1 and handle your own LNP push and pulls On Oct 11, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Paul Timmins <paul at timmins.net> wrote:
Well, the easy (?) way is to make a test call, or open a ticket with your tier 1.
But yes, I was stating directly that if your tier 1 doesn't provide you notification of line loss, they're incompetent.
In order to take your numbers away, the tier 1 would have to be involved (obviously) so if they don't notify you of a loss of customer, then that's just ridiculous. Generally, you can't tell otherwise, as the only difference between you and someone else is a route index in their switch, and a change to their billing system to account for usage. If you don't have access to one of those two items, you can't tell directly.
-Paul
On Oct 11, 2012, at 0:46 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
The problem is that I have no way of (a) knowing if they are competent and my provider is incompetent or (b) the tier 1 is incompetent. And if it is the tier 1, are you saying I'm simply SOL? Regardless of who is and who isn't, I'm hoping someone has figured out how to figure it out and to share their inside knowledge.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Paul Timmins wrote:
If your tier 1 is competent, they're passing CSR requests and providing some sort of loss notification.
If they fail to provide same, well, then they're not competent.
On Oct 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I don't normally get involved in porting, but since I understand the NXX and interconnection processes that sometimes helps me work through issues like this. So while I don't have an answer I do have something you can try to figure it out. Sometimes Tier 1 carriers will use LRNs to identify each underlying company and when they have to port between the underlying carriers they will do an intra-company port. So you could potentially tell if one number was ported from one underlying carrier to another by checking to see if the LRN has changed (granted they flag their carriers this way). When you enter your LRN in the LERG, you can add a note to the record and so I would check the LRN record in the LERG to see if there is a note on the LRN record. I would also check to see what the OCN is on the LRN record because some underlying carriers will order their own NXXs and point everything to the Tier 1 carrier's network because they lease trunks through the Tier 1 carrier. You can find out what company the LRN is associated with by looking up the OCN associated with the LRN record in the LERG 1 table. If the Tier 1 carrier doesn't separate out the traffic by LRN, then unfortunately you really won't be able to tell when or who it's ported to. Mary Lou Carey BackUP Telecom Consulting marylou at backuptelecom.com Office: 615-791-9969 x 2001 -----Original Message----- From: voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Matthew S. Crocker Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:50 AM To: Paul Timmins Cc: VoiceOps Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Number Portability Within a Carrier In his example the tier 1 carrier is not changing. There is no formal LNP port being done. The tier 2 is changing but both tier 2 carriers use the same tier 1. The solution is to become tier 1 and handle your own LNP push and pulls On Oct 11, 2012, at 1:08 AM, Paul Timmins <paul at timmins.net> wrote:
Well, the easy (?) way is to make a test call, or open a ticket with your tier 1.
But yes, I was stating directly that if your tier 1 doesn't provide you notification of line loss, they're incompetent.
In order to take your numbers away, the tier 1 would have to be involved (obviously) so if they don't notify you of a loss of customer, then that's just ridiculous. Generally, you can't tell otherwise, as the only difference between you and someone else is a route index in their switch, and a change to their billing system to account for usage. If you don't have access to one of those two items, you can't tell directly.
-Paul
On Oct 11, 2012, at 0:46 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
The problem is that I have no way of (a) knowing if they are competent and my provider is incompetent or (b) the tier 1 is incompetent. And if it is the tier 1, are you saying I'm simply SOL? Regardless of who is and who isn't, I'm hoping someone has figured out how to figure it out and to share their inside knowledge.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Paul Timmins wrote:
If your tier 1 is competent, they're passing CSR requests and providing some sort of loss notification.
If they fail to provide same, well, then they're not competent.
On Oct 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I would think Tier 1s would consider such details strictly CPNI. On 10/10/2012 10:52 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
So there are some pretty big Tier 1 names in the DID/telecom world: Level3, Verizon, Bandwidth.com. Many resellers resell the DIDs they get from these bigger companies.
The problem is that the Tier 1 company shows up as the "owner" of phone numbers that we get from our Tier 2 or even Tier 3 providers. That's all fine and good, but the problem is this:
Me ------> Tier 2 provider --> Tier 1 provider / Not Me --> Tier 2 provider /
When someone submits a request to port a number, and they port it to a different Tier 2 provider that gets its numbers from the same Tier 1 provider, I have no way, not even with an LNP dip, to find out that it was ported, that the owner had changed.
I'm pretty sure Tier 1 providers don't have an API or any way that I might be able to find out that they moved a number from one of their direct customers to another. Am I wrong?
So how do we deal with this? How do we find out, in a definitive and authoritative and programmatic manner, when a number we think is ours is ported away?
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
-- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC 235 E Ponce de Leon Ave Suite 106 Decatur, GA 30030 Tel: +1-678-954-0670 Fax: +1-404-961-1892 Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.alexbalashov.com/
participants (5)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
beckman＠angryox.com -
marylou＠backuptelecom.com -
matthew＠corp.crocker.com -
paul＠timmins.net