Full global country/city list similar to NANPA list
On 02/01/2010 03:29 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Is there such a thing?
Country code City Rate center or equivalent
No. Many disparate, nationally and regionally specific lists. Some kind of aggregation of them may be available from the usual likes of Telcordia or CCMI, but I would speculate not cheaply. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Just make your own list from all your carriers a-z rate sheets. Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 1, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:29 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Is there such a thing?
Country code City Rate center or equivalent
No. Many disparate, nationally and regionally specific lists.
Some kind of aggregation of them may be available from the usual likes of Telcordia or CCMI, but I would speculate not cheaply.
-- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC
Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 02/01/2010 03:38 PM, Colin wrote:
Just make your own list from all your carriers a-z rate sheets.
That will not be formally and jurisdictionally complete. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On 2/1/10 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:38 PM, Colin wrote:
Just make your own list from all your carriers a-z rate sheets.
That will not be formally and jurisdictionally complete.
Exactly. And that's what our programmer, working on our LCR system, is unhappy about. She wants solid logic and reasoning, and I think it's not to be found in the phone system. She's also looking at the issues of originating ANI and how it affects things, such as intra/interstate costs.
On 02/01/2010 03:44 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
On 2/1/10 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:38 PM, Colin wrote:
Just make your own list from all your carriers a-z rate sheets.
That will not be formally and jurisdictionally complete.
Exactly. And that's what our programmer, working on our LCR system, is unhappy about. She wants solid logic and reasoning, and I think it's not to be found in the phone system. She's also looking at the issues of originating ANI and how it affects things, such as intra/interstate costs.
This question has been extensively contemplated in these parts as well. As far as I can tell, you're rather out of luck unless you want to shell out benjamins. On the other hand, if you don't want your retail rates to be any more granular than the most granular rates that appear in the entire aggregated rate decks of all your carriers, taking the others' suggestions may not be wholly unreasonable. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Maybe I misread the original post if your not worried about the cost what are you looking for? Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 1, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:38 PM, Colin wrote:
Just make your own list from all your carriers a-z rate sheets.
That will not be formally and jurisdictionally complete.
-- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC
Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On 2/1/10 1:49 PM, Colin wrote:
Maybe I misread the original post if your not worried about the cost what are you looking for?
The LCR system is all about cost. However in building it, logic says you find the absolutely most granular model possible, and build up from there. That's the theory anyway. Then, again in theory, all rate decks should fit into that model and you have neat and concise database queries. Here is how I explain theory versus reality, and it certainly applies to the phone network: http://www.askmen.com/daily/jokes/2001_jun/jun14.html I appreciate the fast feedback because although it's not the answer we'd hoped for, we can proceed with our own implementation without thinking there's a better, more logical way.
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
The LCR system is all about cost. However in building it, logic says you find the absolutely most granular model possible, and build up from there. That's the theory anyway. Then, again in theory, all rate decks should fit into that model and you have neat and concise database queries.
Here is how I explain theory versus reality, and it certainly applies to the phone network:
http://www.askmen.com/daily/jokes/2001_jun/jun14.html
I appreciate the fast feedback because although it's not the answer we'd hoped for, we can proceed with our own implementation without thinking there's a better, more logical way.
One provider offers a single price for a given prefix. The length of the prefix is what determines the rate, per provider. When calling +7 499 xxxx if you get a prefix of 7 and a rate of 0.08, but prefix 749 is 0.28, you will be paying 0.28 for tha call. Only if the dialed number matches no other longer prefixes will you get the rate listed for prefix of 7. Other providers have intra- and interlata rates for NANPA when they provide breakouts. Other providers offer multiple qualities for different routes. Yet other providers offer different rates based on time of day. Your best bet is to get accounts with 5 different A-Z providers, see how they break out their rate decks, then develop backwards from there. Then again, when you find #6, you'll have to redo it again, I'm sure. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 02/01/2010 04:02 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
Your best bet is to get accounts with 5 different A-Z providers, see how they break out their rate decks, then develop backwards from there.
Easier said than done.
Then again, when you find #6, you'll have to redo it again, I'm sure.
I think Carlos / his programmer are trying to find a way to automate this process based on what's currently available in the LCR. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 04:02 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
Your best bet is to get accounts with 5 different A-Z providers, see how they break out their rate decks, then develop backwards from there.
Easier said than done.
Well of course it is! Still, having 5 real world rate decks, figuring out the differences and likenesses between them helps you build a unified LCR database that, if you are smart, can be updated by redownloading those CSV files and run against your LCR db.
I think Carlos / his programmer are trying to find a way to automate this process based on what's currently available in the LCR.
There is a single, LCR? "the LCR." If only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 02/01/2010 04:08 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 04:02 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
Your best bet is to get accounts with 5 different A-Z providers, see how they break out their rate decks, then develop backwards from there.
Easier said than done.
Well of course it is! Still, having 5 real world rate decks, figuring out the differences and likenesses between them helps you build a unified LCR database that, if you are smart, can be updated by redownloading those CSV files and run against your LCR db.
I think Carlos / his programmer are trying to find a way to automate this process based on what's currently available in the LCR.
There is a single, LCR? "the LCR."
Sorry. Shorthand for "[one's/your/his] LCR database," by which it is meant "all carriers and their rates respectively available for selection by the LCR algorithm." I know, that's about as bad as the tech support customers that call the ISP asking why "your Internet" is down. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Of course you will all find a single lcr isn't the best and you'll need some type of intelligent routing based on recent call stats to ensure quality/price etc etc etc. Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 1, 2010, at 4:08 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman at angryox.com> wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 04:02 PM, Peter Beckman wrote:
Your best bet is to get accounts with 5 different A-Z providers, see how they break out their rate decks, then develop backwards from there.
Easier said than done.
Well of course it is! Still, having 5 real world rate decks, figuring out the differences and likenesses between them helps you build a unified LCR database that, if you are smart, can be updated by redownloading those CSV files and run against your LCR db.
I think Carlos / his programmer are trying to find a way to automate this process based on what's currently available in the LCR.
There is a single, LCR? "the LCR."
If only. --- --- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman at angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ --- --- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 02/01/2010 03:56 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
On 2/1/10 1:49 PM, Colin wrote:
Maybe I misread the original post if your not worried about the cost what are you looking for?
The LCR system is all about cost. However in building it, logic says you find the absolutely most granular model possible, and build up from there. That's the theory anyway. Then, again in theory, all rate decks should fit into that model and you have neat and concise database queries.
Carlos, as long as you have confidence in all your carriers' willingness to complete a call to a given destination at a given price, I think the simplest strategy for you would be to generate a retail deck according to the most granular prefix available for every destination among all carriers in your LCR table. When two or more prefix/provider tuples are of equal prefix length, choose the highest one, the lowest one, or average them, or average them and then add a certain %. It really just depends on how likely it is that a given carrier will not actually complete a call and you'll have to fall back to a much more expensive rate from the next-cheapest carrier.
Here is how I explain theory versus reality, and it certainly applies to the phone network:
LOL! :) -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On Feb 1, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:56 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
On 2/1/10 1:49 PM, Colin wrote:
Maybe I misread the original post if your not worried about the cost what are you looking for?
The LCR system is all about cost. However in building it, logic says you find the absolutely most granular model possible, and build up from there. That's the theory anyway. Then, again in theory, all rate decks should fit into that model and you have neat and concise database queries.
Carlos, as long as you have confidence in all your carriers' willingness to complete a call to a given destination at a given price, I think the simplest strategy for you would be to generate a retail deck according to the most granular prefix available for every destination among all carriers in your LCR table. When two or more prefix/provider tuples are of equal prefix length, choose the highest one, the lowest one, or average them, or average them and then add a certain %.
It really just depends on how likely it is that a given carrier will not actually complete a call and you'll have to fall back to a much more expensive rate from the next-cheapest carrier.
I'd tend to agree with Alex - this is at least the most "cost- conservative" way to do it. However, if you're looking for a solution that is more complete, and has other bonuses, I'd suggest the "GDDS" product from Telcordia. Not only do you get a pretty good idea of both domestic and international route termination behaviors, but you can also do nifty things like put city names or service classes on your customer CDR/billing entries when all you have is the number they dialed. Often this is quite handy. It's costly, though - to be oblique, figure at least one MacBook per month, roughly. Price varies based on your usage model. Most critical in the data delivered by this service is the ability for them to tell you what is a "mobile" versus "non-mobile" termination number. When the cost difference is 10x or 20x, this makes a big difference in your routing engine. Carriers are known to be a bit "forgetful" about telling you what routes are billed at what rates. My favorite was a company (who shall remain nameless) who gave us rates for termination into the UK, but wouldn't give us actual route prefixes. "Oh, you have to figure that out on your own - the data is available..." was the vague answer. I wrote about GDDS here: http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-users/2008-December/223455.html ...and I wrote a document as a template for standardization of routing information here, but I suspect nobody uses it: http://www.loligo.com/asterisk/misc/rates/ <sigh> The pain goes on. So glad I'm not doing that ops stuff any longer. JT
Correct! Telcordia's "Global Dialing Data Solution", AKA/AFIK, "Country Dial Codes". That's the best authoritative source that I have seen. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Alex Balashov <abalashov at evaristesys.com> wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:29 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Is there such a thing?
Country code City Rate center or equivalent
No. ?Many disparate, nationally and regionally specific lists.
Some kind of aggregation of them may be available from the usual likes of Telcordia or CCMI, but I would speculate not cheaply.
-- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC
Tel ? ?: +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web ? ?: http://www.evaristesys.com/ _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
You can get some detail for free from the international termination rates from Qwest and others. They give the international dialing code(s), the region name, and of course their rate to terminate calls to that area. For example: Australia,11,61,0.0399 Australia - Melbourne,11,6138,0.0399 Australia - Melbourne,11,6139,0.0399 Australia - Mobile/SS,11,611,0.2148 Australia - Mobile/SS,11,614,0.2148 Australia - Mobile/SS,11,615,0.2148 Australia - Mobile/SS,11,6108,0.2148 Australia - Mobile/SS,11,6107,0.2148 Australia - Sydney,11,6128,0.0399 Australia - Sydney,11,6129,0.0399 This shows that Australia is dialed with a leading 011 (",11,"). If you're calling 011-6138-1234, you're going to Melbourne; 011-6129-1234 is to Sydney. But 011-616-123456 is going to somewhere in Australia not listed. On Feb 1, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Is there such a thing?
Country code City Rate center or equivalent
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
mark r lindsey at e-c-group.com http://e-c-group.com/~lindsey +12293160013
On 02/01/2010 03:36 PM, Mark R Lindsey wrote:
You can get some detail for free from the international termination rates from Qwest and others. They give the international dialing code(s), the region name, and of course their rate to terminate calls to that area.
That will only be as granular as someone's rate deck. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On 2/1/10 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
That will only be as granular as someone's rate deck.
Each rate deck is different. Commpartners may treat NPA NXX as one rate and Level 3 may go NPA NXX X for a rate. So being logical, my programmer is unhappy with such non-uniformity. I have lots of hammer-like solutions and she's trying to find a scalpel.
On 02/01/2010 03:46 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
On 2/1/10 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
That will only be as granular as someone's rate deck.
Each rate deck is different. Commpartners may treat NPA NXX as one rate and Level 3 may go NPA NXX X for a rate. So being logical, my programmer is unhappy with such non-uniformity. I have lots of hammer-like solutions and she's trying to find a scalpel.
Building a retail deck (if that's what you're doing) is a complicated process. It may involve deciding to standardise upon NPA-NXX and composing/blending/averaging/statistically weighting any longer prefixes that exist under it in your LCR table. Or you can bill by LATA/OCN altogether. There are no easy solutions. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
On 2/1/10 1:49 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
Building a retail deck (if that's what you're doing) is a complicated process. It may involve deciding to standardise upon NPA-NXX and composing/blending/averaging/statistically weighting any longer prefixes that exist under it in your LCR table. Or you can bill by LATA/OCN altogether.
Our retail pricing is rather simple; flat rate US/CAN and cost plus for international. We're just working on internal cost optimization on this. And while we can work from rate decks, as I said, my programmer is trying to work from the most logical place possible.
The real answer to that is you build your routing system to handle breakout differences from carries and take advantage of it while rolling up enough codes to your customers and taking advantage of that as well. If your programmer has no experience with international LCR and no one that can provide her with requirements your potentially in for a world of Hurt. Sent from my iPhone. On Feb 1, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Carlos Alvarez <carlos at televolve.com> wrote:
On 2/1/10 1:39 PM, Alex Balashov wrote:
That will only be as granular as someone's rate deck.
Each rate deck is different. Commpartners may treat NPA NXX as one rate and Level 3 may go NPA NXX X for a rate. So being logical, my programmer is unhappy with such non-uniformity. I have lots of hammer-like solutions and she's trying to find a scalpel. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 02/01/2010 03:54 PM, Colin wrote:
build your routing system to handle breakout differences from carries and take advantage of it while rolling up enough codes to your customers and taking advantage of that as well.
So, in other words: "How to build a rate deck." Step 1: Build a rate deck. Step 2: Done. -- Alex Balashov - Principal Evariste Systems LLC Tel : +1 678-954-0670 Direct : +1 678-954-0671 Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Wow if only i had followed those steps when building ours the process would have been much easier :) On Mon, 2010-02-01 at 15:58 -0500, Alex Balashov wrote:
On 02/01/2010 03:54 PM, Colin wrote:
build your routing system to handle breakout differences from carries and take advantage of it while rolling up enough codes to your customers and taking advantage of that as well.
So, in other words: "How to build a rate deck."
Step 1: Build a rate deck. Step 2: Done.
participants (8)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
anorexicpoodle＠gmail.com -
beckman＠angryox.com -
carlos＠televolve.com -
hiersd＠gmail.com -
jtodd＠loligo.com -
lindsey＠e-c-group.com -
zavoid＠gmail.com