I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
Not sure how useful it is Mike, but thought of a couple of examples: Dropped packets (eg from radio interfaces) NAT (eg one-way audio caused by broken ALGs, or lost signalling due to state table timeouts) Pete
On 14/06/2021, at 6:11 AM, Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
Hi, It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded.?? And I'm presuming from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call quality problems. Usually bufferbloat.?? Routers with too much memory cause a lot of latency at the point of a fast to slow transition in the network. And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, and somebody emails a large attachment during a call. Or it can be something like a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a juniper edge router on a 10gig core. Customer does a download, latency goes nuts and all the phone calls sound naff. Tools to test. fast.com and press the `Show more info` button.?? Forget the bandwidth figures, and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded latency.? If a big difference, you have a problem. http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest? This will give a bufferbloat score.? Then look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show you upload and download latency figures for idle, downloading and uploading.??? (This is one of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way to pay them some money each month to support the service.? They were struggling a bit at some stage.) Tim On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote:
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Transcoding is something that?s not been mentioned here yet. Especially with the growth of Microsoft Teams using Silk audio codec driving wideband telephony and all voice arriving from a wireless network needs to be transcoded before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband. Packet loss & jitter (and latency which is not part of normal voice clarity measurements) cause poor voice quality as perceived by the user. Maybe they don?t have QoS set for voice on their LAN/ customer premises, or likely gets stripped off as it comes in over ISP/access link/last Mile. Congestion, CPU utilization, audio set up (microphone etc.) and other impairments introduced by the desktop/PC/Softphone (transmitting & receiving) will also impact call quality + anything processing audio in the network such as a transcoder. The ?MOS? value you typically see from a packet monitoring system is derived from R factor and only takes into account packet loss and jitter. But the user experience is based on the AUDIO they receive. the only MOS measurement to quantify this is AUDIO MOS or PESQ/POLQA MOS and involves transmitting an audio file across the network and comparing it with its reference. if you're concerned about customs complaining poor UX, record a small sample of their audio coming from them (with their permission of course, usual waivers etc.] and send it back to them as a pcap, so they can listen to it for themselves. If you need any help decoding anything other than G.711 in Wireshark, let us know. Many Thanks & Best Regards, Richard Jobson Teraquant Corporation ph: 719 488 1003 d/l: (719) 766-8523 www.teraquant.com<http://www.teraquant.com/> richard at teraquant.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/uc-expert-monitoring/ Network Monitoring and Service Assurance - Speech Quality Experts (PESQ/POLQA) and Active Testing - Reporting ? HPBX - Session Border Controllers ? SDN and SD-WAN - Big Data Analytics and fraud detection and protection. -- NOTICE: This electronic mail transmission may contain confidential information and is intended only for the person(s) named. Any use, copying, or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender via e-mail. From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> on behalf of Tim Bray via VoiceOps <voiceops at voiceops.org> Reply-To: Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> Date: Monday, June 14, 2021 at 3:23 AM To: Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net>, <voiceops at voiceops.org> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Hi, It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded. And I'm presuming from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call quality problems. Usually bufferbloat. Routers with too much memory cause a lot of latency at the point of a fast to slow transition in the network. And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, and somebody emails a large attachment during a call. Or it can be something like a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a juniper edge router on a 10gig core. Customer does a download, latency goes nuts and all the phone calls sound naff. Tools to test. fast.com and press the `Show more info` button. Forget the bandwidth figures, and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded latency. If a big difference, you have a problem. http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest This will give a bufferbloat score. Then look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show you upload and download latency figures for idle, downloading and uploading. (This is one of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way to pay them some money each month to support the service. They were struggling a bit at some stage.) Tim On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote: I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote:
before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband
This is starting to get a /little/ bit better, but progress is painfully slow.? For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for it to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them.? They won't transcode, just allow the negotiation to pass through.? Within my telco we enable G722 wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support it all the way through to their phones.? We now have hundreds of endpoints that will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent.
I've seen an increase in G722 calls and I've seen a few AMR-WB calls get through too for our International vendors. Its still relatively new for them outside of the IPX/VoLTE market. I've had a large PTT ask to help with end to end testing for AMR-WB with them. A handful of International vendors are supporting G722 with us but still only Inteliquent for domestic. Does Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes preventing the rest of the domestic carriers from using it? Rural Call Completion is definitely still a big quality issue. One way audio, foreign country ringback tone, and PDD followed by a 503 is what we test and try to mitigate before customers notice. The race to the bottom pricing has drawbacks. There are several CLECs that I won't put their "Gold" , "highest level" deck in route because its still garbage. Occasionally we will see dropped calls due to incorrectly configured SIP timers. I'm curious to see what happens with quality KPIs when more end destinations start validating/rejecting SHAKEN/STIR calls. Will we get higher PDD because carriers don't deploy their certs in a CDN and someone DDOSes the certificate host? Will end destination carriers finally start rejected the grey route International traffic with nothing or C level attestations? On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 1:07 PM Mike Johnston <mjohnston at wiktel.com> wrote:
On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote:
before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband
This is starting to get a *little* bit better, but progress is painfully slow. For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for it to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them. They won't transcode, just allow the negotiation to pass through. Within my telco we enable G722 wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support it all the way through to their phones. We now have hundreds of endpoints that will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent. _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
On 2021-06-16 16:42, Jared Geiger wrote:
Does Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes
On my Ribbon C15s, there is no extra charge/license for G722. However, we do need to pay licenses for SIP trunks in general, which is by far the largest barrier towards modernizing our phone network.? We already have TDM hardware for the needed capacity. We also have IP hardware for the needed capacity.? But, since those SIP trunk licenses (RTUs) from Ribbon are fairly expensive, it can be hard to convince manglement why we need them.? If a call has to cross a T1 in my network, then it negotiates to only G711. Manglement doesn't seem to have any interest in HD calling, at least not that they have expressed to me.
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. orrrr Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> To: "VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced that I suppose someone could write a book about it :) I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term. For example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit copies of your voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no noticeable call quality changes. I always thought that was a pretty novel and a good idea. I suppose there is a similar reason that Zoom will tend to work fine where all else being equal another similar platform will not perform well. -Brandon On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know.
Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
orrrr
Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Yeah, there's so many moving parts to the voice quality equation within the supply chain, equipment choices, and network engineering that it would be hard to even scratch the surface in a mailing list thread. On 6/14/21 12:26 PM, Brandon Svec via VoiceOps wrote:
There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced?that I suppose someone could write a book about it :)
I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term.? For example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit?copies of your voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no noticeable?call quality changes.? I always thought?that was a pretty novel and a good idea.? I suppose there is a similar?reason that Zoom will tend to work fine where all else being equal another similar platform will not perform well.
-Brandon
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net <mailto:voiceops at ics-il.net>> wrote:
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know.
Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
orrrr
Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com>
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com>
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net <mailto:voiceops at ics-il.net>> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org <mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com>
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com>
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops>
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops>
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-- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from packet TTL hitting zero. If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed? Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.ellison at voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 <http://voxox.com> <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> <https://twitter.com/Voxox> The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know.
Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
orrrr
Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
"Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers" I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most of the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks to ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't ensure that anyone else has built their network the same. Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature. On inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot harder to figure out. It still doesn't make any sense. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Calvin Ellison" <calvin.ellison at voxox.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> Cc: "VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from packet TTL hitting zero. If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed? Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.ellison at voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett < voiceops at ics-il.net > wrote: I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. orrrr Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voiceops at ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops at voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I most often see this happen to avoid complaints about calls terminating to cloud IP addresses or IP addresses outside the USA. Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.ellison at voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 <http://voxox.com> <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> <https://twitter.com/Voxox> The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:38 AM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
"Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers"
I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most of the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks to ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't ensure that anyone else has built their network the same.
Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature. On inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot harder to figure out. It still doesn't make any sense.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Calvin Ellison" <calvin.ellison at voxox.com> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *Cc: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from packet TTL hitting zero.
If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics.
Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed?
Calvin Ellison
Systems Architect
calvin.ellison at voxox.com
+1 (213) 285-0555
<https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> <https://twitter.com/Voxox>
The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know.
Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
orrrr
Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> To: "VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Well right. The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voiceops at ics-il.net > wrote: One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voiceops at ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops at voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the handsets? I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
Well right.
The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone).
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> *To: *voiceops at voiceops.org *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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I can't say I've experienced it, no. It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned with. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the handsets? I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett < voiceops at ics-il.net > wrote: Well right. The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Carlos Alvarez" < caalvarez at gmail.com > To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voiceops at ics-il.net > wrote: <blockquote> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voiceops at ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops at voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops </blockquote> _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
It's not an issue other than what others said; junk analog gear and/or people doing dumb things. Another one I found was call center people who don't want to mess up their hair, and wear a headset with the band around the neck, earpiece angled off the back of the earlobe. They turn up the volume to full to be able to hear, and the speaker has a direct line to the microphone hanging 4" away from their face. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:45 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
I can't say I've experienced it, no.
It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned with.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> *To: *voiceops at voiceops.org *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the handsets?
I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
Well right.
The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone).
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> *To: *voiceops at voiceops.org *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> *To: *"VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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I regularly hear echo on Teams calls when there is a person is not using a headset and the reflection off the walls of the room are outside what the ECX software on the computer can cope with.
On Jun 14, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
Well right.
The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone).
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
From: "Carlos Alvarez" <caalvarez at gmail.com> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote: One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
From: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net> To: "VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
_______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. ? Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice.? Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB? or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org
God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Oh, they absolutely do TRY to. And junk equipment. Last week a site-level manager for a customer tried to tell us we were responsible for and needed to do something about the 15-20 robocalls per day they were getting. My first answer was, wait, ONLY 15-20?? (Number is SEO and so easily scraped.) On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:49 PM Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones.
Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
------------------------------ *From: *"Tim Bray via VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> *To: *voiceops at voiceops.org *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?
Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things.
Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones`
-- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org
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Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You?d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you?d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well?when it really matters?.use a headset. Michael Graves mgraves at mstvp.com<mailto:mgraves at mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgraves at mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ________________________________ From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org>> To: voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org<mailto:tim at kooky.org> _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
*nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "mgraves mstvp.com" <mgraves at mstvp.com> To: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net>, "Tim Bray" <tim at kooky.org> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM Subject: RE: Call Quality Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You?d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you?d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well?when it really matters?.use a headset. Michael Graves mgraves at mstvp.com o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgraves at mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" < voiceops at voiceops.org > To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
That?s nice. However, a simple headset with a boom mounted microphone is a vast improvement over a typical situation. Even a cheap one from Koss. https://www.zipdx.info/product-review-koss-cs300-usb-headset/ We have a special service for use by conference interpreters like those who work for the UN. We have to occasionally review headsets to verify reliable, full-duplex performance. There are some USB audio interface chips that degrade microphone performance while in the presence of incoming sound. It?s a faulty echo cancellation scheme implemented in silicon. Michael Graves mgraves at mstvp.com<mailto:mgraves at mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgraves at mjg.onsip.com From: Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 5:05 PM To: mgraves mstvp.com <mgraves at mstvp.com> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org; Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org> Subject: Re: Call Quality *nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.) ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ________________________________ From: "mgraves mstvp.com" <mgraves at mstvp.com<mailto:mgraves at mstvp.com>> To: "Mike Hammett" <voiceops at ics-il.net<mailto:voiceops at ics-il.net>>, "Tim Bray" <tim at kooky.org<mailto:tim at kooky.org>> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM Subject: RE: Call Quality Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You?d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you?d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well?when it really matters?.use a headset. Michael Graves mgraves at mstvp.com<mailto:mgraves at mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgraves at mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps <voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray <tim at kooky.org<mailto:tim at kooky.org>> Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ________________________________ From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org>> To: voiceops at voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops at voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org<mailto:tim at kooky.org> _______________________________________________ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps at voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps at voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
I can attest to them being non-zero as I have handled multiple of these tickets myself! I don't believe they do it through arrogance or malice though - just plain ignorance.
On 15/06/2021, at 9:46 AM, Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:
God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones.
Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com
From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" <voiceops at voiceops.org> To: voiceops at voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo?
Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?
Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things.
Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones`
-- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB tim at kooky.org
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participants (12)
-
abalashov＠evaristesys.com -
bsvec＠teamonesolutions.com -
caalvarez＠gmail.com -
calvin.ellison＠voxox.com -
cboyd＠gizmopartners.com -
jared＠compuwizz.net -
mgraves＠mstvp.com -
mjohnston＠wiktel.com -
pete＠mac.geek.nz -
richard＠teraquant.com -
tim＠kooky.org -
voiceops＠ics-il.net